Cactus Game Design Message Boards

I'm still at a loss as to how instead works.

1.) If I DD an Angel set aside with Gathering, does it go to Chamber?  At the time of angel discard, DD is already in discard pile, so can Chamber's instead target it?
Darius' Decree (TP)

Type: Artifact • Brigade: None • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: Opponents may not play good Enhancements from hand, unless an Evil Character is in battle. You may discard this card to discard all Heroes in set-aside areas. • Play As: Restrict opponents from playing good Enhancements from hand, unless an Evil Character is in battle. You may discard this card to discard all Heroes in set-aside areas. • Identifiers: None • Verse: Daniel 6:9 • Availability: Thesaurus ex Preteritus booster packs ()

2.) RBD can still hit FB because it's not targeting the set aside FB, but rather the deck?

1) Your angel that is discarded from anywhere in the game by any card in the game goes to your Chamber.

Can the discard be from anywhere?

So Gates works as intended?

I should hope so.

So IoJ and DS do nothing to Herod's Temple?

That's a bonkers explanation, but I suppose I can put up with an infuriating ruling in light of quite a few that are great for the game. I'll plant my flag on this hill at a later date.

The infuriating aspect is that instead isn't even a special ability, despite being a special ability. Doubly infuriating because it breaks the "default to play" targeting rule for no apparent reason. Triply infuriating because it changes another ability, but it doesn't change that ability, but it changes its result, but it doesn't target anything.

Does this help?

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"Instead"

If an ability is "insteaded" then that ability is considered to never have been carried out, for any reason. Only the ability that took place instead of the original ability is considered to have happened.

If a card is "immune" to or “protected” from the "instead" ability, then the original ability is carried out and considered to have happened.

All instead abilities have an implied "would" or "would be” before the ability. i.e. "If an opponent's good dominant [would] rescue or [would] discard a card," or "If your N.T. human [would be] discarded by a special ability." (Some cards already have this language, such as Chamber of Angels (“If your angel is being discarded…”).

Found here: http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/redemption-official-rules/official-new-rulings-announcement-thread/msg416755/#msg386410

The card from hand and deck are the target.  That seems pretty evident since those are the cards being discarded.

If you are protected from discard, a discard effect does not do anything to you.  I do not see where "instead" matters in whether something of mine can be discarded or not.

Since when is this the basis for rulings?

What do you mean "the basis for rulings"?  Just answer this: if I have an ability "discard a card from your hand", what's the target?

What on earth does Herod's Temple do?  How exactly does instead influence it?

Instead tells you what effect to do... INSTEAD... of the effect stated in the condition.

Herod's Temple discards a card from hand and deck... INSTEAD... of discarding your NT human.  Is that not what the card says?

Card from hand.  If I instead your ability, what's my target?

Card from hand.  Because that's what the card says.

Instead isn't an ability, so I can't "do" that.

I don't understand why a discard ability does not discard in this situation.  Why does "instead" have to be an ability for discard to discard?

It seems pretty evident to me that it's targeting the card that's discarding from hand.

It is a discard ability.  Your card is not being discarded.  I disagree that is the evident target.

Take Jephthah as an example of a similar "keyword" function.  Discard your top card to discard some other dudes.

"To" says if you discard your top card, then you discard the dudes; if not, then you don't.

Is "to" a special ability?  Does that second ability target Jephthah?

This is one of the easiest things in the game to figure if people don't overthink it, and IMO the closest the game has been to "just do what the card says" of most new rulings in the last several years.

If an ability is "must" (also the default), then you must A.  If it's A, B, C, then you A AND B AND C.
If an ability is "may" A, B, C, then you may A AND/OR B AND/OR C, OR none of the above.
If an ability is "if A, then B", then, well, it's if A, then B.
If an ability is "may A to B", then you may A AND also B, or NOT-A AND also NOT-B.
If an ability is "if A, instead B", then if A, then B AND NOT-A.

If, Must, May, To, Instead... none of these are "abilities", they are just words that tell you what conditions and requirements are tied to the actual abilities ON the card.

To does interact with other special abilities.  If you don't do A, you don't get B.
May interacts with multiple abilities, granting you the option to carry them out or not.
What about all the cards in the game that discard from deck, but also say "put Lost Souls in play instead".  Does that not count since the altered effect is on the same card?  Does that mean "instead" is sometimes an ability and sometimes not?

If "instead" does not have to interact with another card's ability to be considered a special ability, then I don't understand your requirement that "may" or "to" have to interact with another card's ability.

You asked whether Image of Jealousy cancels the effect of Herod's Temple.  It does.  Why is this still a problem?