Intrinsic Nature of man: good or evil?

[Minion of Jesus]

As far as I'm concerned, EC is the natural way of man. The reason he isn't a card is because we know basically nothing about him.

Do you mean people are naturally evil in the game, or in life?

[Alex_Olijar]

As far as I'm concerned, EC is the natural way of man. The reason he isn't a card is because we know basically nothing about him.

Do you mean people are naturally evil in the game, or in life?

Life

[Minion of Jesus]

As far as I'm concerned, EC is the natural way of man. The reason he isn't a card is because we know basically nothing about him.

Do you mean people are naturally evil in the game, or in life?

Life

That's not exactly true. We didn't start out evil with God making us good; He created us good, and we fell. Thus, we are much more susceptible to sin, but we are not inherently evil. If that was so, the world would be worse then it already is.

[Professoralstad]

That's not exactly true. We didn't start out evil with God making us good; He created us good, and we fell. Thus, we are much more susceptible to sin, but we are not inherently evil. If that was so, the world would be worse then it already is.

*WARNING* Potentially heated theological debate approaching! Forum Members beware! *WARNING*

[Alex_Olijar]

As far as I'm concerned, EC is the natural way of man. The reason he isn't a card is because we know basically nothing about him.

Do you mean people are naturally evil in the game, or in life?

Life

That's not exactly true. We didn't start out evil with God making us good; He created us good, and we fell. Thus, we are much more susceptible to sin, but we are not inherently evil. If that was so, the world would be worse then it already is.

Read the Bible again

[jbeers285]

This is headed towards totally depravity 

[Minion of Jesus]

As far as I'm concerned, EC is the natural way of man. The reason he isn't a card is because we know basically nothing about him.

Do you mean people are naturally evil in the game, or in life?

Life

That's not exactly true. We didn't start out evil with God making us good; He created us good, and we fell. Thus, we are much more susceptible to sin, but we are not inherently evil. If that was so, the world would be worse then it already is.

Read the Bible again

Which part, exactly? If we are evil, why do our hearts yearn for eternity, for love, for God? Sure, we are born with original sin, but many unbaptized people are still good people.

[Alex_Olijar]

As far as I'm concerned, EC is the natural way of man. The reason he isn't a card is because we know basically nothing about him.

Do you mean people are naturally evil in the game, or in life?

Life

That's not exactly true. We didn't start out evil with God making us good; He created us good, and we fell. Thus, we are much more susceptible to sin, but we are not inherently evil. If that was so, the world would be worse then it already is.

Read the Bible again

Which part, exactly? If we are evil, why do our hearts yearn for eternity, for love, for God? Sure, we are born with original sin, but many unbaptized people are still good people.

The whole Bible, not just the parts where Jesus talks. There's no such thing as a good person. Apparently I can't talk about what the Bible says anymore though.

[soul seeker]

Alex, I encourage you to prove it from a biblical point of view (mostly because I agree with you and I think many are mistaken in this area of Christianity).  Additionally, if he IS reading the Bible from a position that humans are basically good, then he may miss parts that say otherwise and your point of view/learning may help.  I don't know why you feel that you can't use the Bible though.   

What I do ask is that you be respectful and not use sarcasm or a condescending tone.*
    *This is a written form of communication, and it is near impossible to wipe out all tone because people will take it how they will...but do your best.  :-)

[Alex_Olijar]

Alex, I encourage you to prove it from a biblical point of view (mostly because I agree with you and I think many are mistaken in this area of Christianity).  Additionally, if he IS reading the Bible from a position that humans are basically good, then he may miss parts that say otherwise and your point of view/learning may help.  I don't know why you feel that you can't use the Bible though.   

What I do ask is that you be respectful and not use sarcasm or a condescending tone.*
    *This is a written form of communication, and it is near impossible to wipe out all tone because people will take it how they will...but do your best.  :-)

I can't talk about it until it goes in OD apparently because we ban all thinking outside of OD or something [sarcasm]. Multiple people wanted it to stop so I couldn't post about the bible. Thank you for moving it to off topic not OD.

[soul seeker]

I didn't think a basic tenant of Christianity (thus for all ages), defended by the Bible, needed to be in OD.  So to me, Off-topic is its proper place.

[browarod]

I don't know why you feel that you can't use the Bible though.   

I believe it was because an Elder mentioned in the other, pre-split, thread to keep that to just the new card idea. Since this now has its own thread it is perfectly fine to continue discussing it.

I agree with Alex, btw. Because of the sin nature, man is inherently evil and actually does NOT seek for God. I don't know any references offhand but I know that in several places the Bible specifies that God seeks us, not the other way around.


*instaposted by Alex and soul seeker*

[TheKarazyvicePresidentRR]

Man is both. We posses God's image which means we possess his power for good however we also have the seed of evil in us. As we grow this is more evident. Some people are naturally nice and do good things, some aren't. Both are missing a God shaped piece to fill and are looking in different ways to fill it. God can use either of these to do great good as well.

Honestly, Man is chaos, pure and simple.

[TheMarti]

No idea why people said that couldn't be somewhere other than OD. Unless this gets disrespectful and heated, it's absolutely fine here.

That being said, I agree with RR. We have both the capability for good and for evil within us (because we are crated in the image of God, but are also fallen people), but we have a propensity toward evil because we're looking for what benefits us the most. That's why Jesus is such a big deal - He helps us fight that propensity with a new heart and mind. We still make mistakes, of course, but it's easier to keep moving forward.

[Minion of Jesus]

If man is intrinsically evil, how come there were good people before the time of Christ? People like David, Noah, Enoch, Moses, etc. all made mistakes in their lives, but they were all good. Also, if man is inherently evil, why wasn't all humanity wiped out instead of sparing Noah? Because he and his family were GOOD enough that they justified the continuation of the human race. Humans became extremely susceptible to temptation because of the fall, but that doesn't make them evil. But, "One-thousand temptations do not make a sin." (Since our souls are immortal, that would mean that our souls are evil. However, our souls are created in the image and likeness of God, so how can they be evil? Furthermore, if we are evil, how can we possibly be worthy of, let alone enter, Heaven? Ultimately, would God create an evil being? Does that seem at all sensible for God, who is all good and all loving? The demons fell, just like we did. But they are pure spirits, and their condition cannot be reversed, otherwise Jesus could have saved them too.

[Chris]

But Noah's family was good only because of their faith in God. Not because of anything they did. The Bible explicitly says "There is none righteous, no not one." I'm not sure how one can be intrinsically good without being righteous. Goodness can only come from God, and man is separated from God until they accept Him.

Counterpoint: Gandhi.

[Redoubter]

I cannot say that man is inherently good, because we have all sinned and fall short of the glory (and goodness) of God.  Since we have all sinned, and not a one of us can say that we are blameless, then I would definitely agree that humans are evil if left to their own devices.  However, since we all hear the 'call' and have been granted justification and atonement, the way has been made to achieve righteousness.

Counterpoint: Gandhi.

Counterpoint to your counterpoint: Ghandi was a very influential and thought-provoking man with wonderful ideas on peace (most of which Jesus may have been heard saying as well), but he had his shares of demons as well (just like any man).

[Minion of Jesus]

But a man who strives to be the best person he knows how to be is a good man. For example: The prophet Zoroaster, while a pagan, came very close to an imitation of the Jewish faith, and by all accounts, he was a good man while still a heathen. Granted, he wasn't perfect either, but still. He was comparitivly righteous.

[soul seeker]

But a man who strives to be the best person he knows how to be is a good man. For example: The prophet Zoroaster, while a pagan, came very close to an imitation of the Jewish faith, and by all accounts, he was a good man while still a heathen. Granted, he wasn't perfect either, but still. He was comparitivly righteous.

1. There is NO comparative righteousness to be obtained.  There is God's law.  No one is good when measured against God's ideal of righteousness.  The Bible is clear that we are sinners bent to be selfish and evil.  It is God's grace and his work within us that brings about good.  Any good done is only because of faith in God.  To do good without God is either classified as nothing (John 15) or worthless (1 Cor. 13 or the book of Ecclesiastes).

2. There are a plethora of examples of the outcome of human devices when left unchecked.  3 famous ones are the Tower of Babel, life during Noah's day pre-flood, and life during the time of the Judges.  I could go on, but those should suffice.

3.  I have a hard time believing examples of supposedly good men/women.  Displaying a human who was "good" as an example implies 2 things.  One, you assume you know EVERYthing about the person (which only God can know the heart of a person and his/her secret actions). Two, "goodness" and "morality" become subjective when one person declares another to be good.

[Alex_Olijar]

Q: Is man good?
A: No (Romans 3:10, Ecclesiastes 7:20, Psalm 14:3)

Q: But what about good things done by man while unsaved (Gandhi's life, etc)?
A: All things not done from faith are sin. (Romans 14:23)

[Minion of Jesus]

Fair enough, but what about people who have never been exposed to Jesus or his teachings, but who try to be the best people they can possibly be, and do acts of kindness? Would that be considered sin? Or a different kind of faith, an unknowing faith? Then, we come back to this: Was man good before the fall, or always evil? If always evil, WOULD GOD DELIBERATELY MAKE AN EVIL BEING?

[jbeers285]

Fair enough, but what about people who have never been exposed to Jesus or his teachings, but who try to be the best people they can possibly be, and do acts of kindness? Would that be considered sin? Or a different kind of faith, an unknowing faith? Then, we come back to this: Was man good before the fall, or always evil? If always evil, WOULD GOD DELIBERATELY MAKE AN EVIL BEING?

Romans 1:18-20 answers the unknowing faith questions clearly.

When God was done creating did he say it is kinda good but a little evil or did he say "it is good"?

The power to choose or make choice is not inherently evil. True, free will carries with it authentic consequences.

Evil is not an object it is relational. Dark is abscence  of light  just as "evil" is the abscence good. Evil is not a thing in itself.

[Minion of Jesus]

So, eating a sandwhich without faith is sin? Also, if we are all born evil, what happens to all babies that die before they are baptized? Do they i love you for doing nothing but being born human?

[jbeers285]

So, eating a sandwhich without faith is sin? Also, if we are all born evil, what happens to all babies that die before they are baptized? Do they i love you for doing nothing but being born human?

Yes.
Grace.
That's for God to decide but I think scripture shows us that he would most likely be merciful in this situation.

[Red]

Fair enough, but what about people who have never been exposed to Jesus or his teachings, but who try to be the best people they can possibly be, and do acts of kindness? Would that be considered sin? Or a different kind of faith, an unknowing faith? Then, we come back to this: Was man good before the fall, or always evil? If always evil, WOULD GOD DELIBERATELY MAKE AN EVIL BEING?

Man was good pre-fall. An evil being can't be called good. However after the fall man changed, mentally and possibly even genetically.