Highway, Stillness, and cards like them

[Bryon]

Errata: "Hero may withdraw from battle.  If no Heroes remain in battle return all good enhancements on that hero to your hand (except this one)."

[BubbleBoy]

Why are you making this change now?

[Captain Kirk]

In the middle of major tournament season?  

I know such an errata has been contemplated in the past, but compared to other cards where unforseen situations arise and lead to immediate erratas, the broken state of this card has been abused for years, so it makes no sense to amend it mid tournament season as players have to change their decks in some cases.

Kirk

[TechnoEthicist]

I'm sorry but this ruling is WAY past due...but I agree doing it in the middle of states/regionals isn't nice...

[Red Dragon Thorn]

Lol, pwned.

Poor Kirk, and I'm going to take a wild guess and assume this hits Jonathans combo in OH too.

But I will agree that this probably should have been handled last year, or after nats this year.

[crustpope]

WOAH!  Totally not cool.  Especially since we are almost through the tournament season.  I have asked Rob about this card and He has stated in the past that one copy of Highway can return another.  There was not discussion of erratas or any other conditions.

I also agree that this ruling is past due, but There are lots of decks (one of them being mine) that has been taking advantage of this all season and to do this right before Regionals is not fair at all.

This is bush league and totally unprofessional especially since the combos have been known for years (and the fact that Highway isnt even the Problem card in most decks, it jsut provided the loop to abuse other cards).  The general lack of action by the PTB has to be assumed as an acceptance, or at least a toleration, of these tactics and if any changes are to come, they should come before the beginning of the next season.

Nothing has changed in the last five minutes that forced immediate action on the PTB for this ruling.

[COUNTER_SNIPER]

Noted, and I will comply.

[TheKarazyvicePresidentRR]

In the middle of major tournament season? 

I know such an errata has been contemplated in the past, but compared to other cards where unforseen situations arise and lead to immediate erratas, the broken state of this card has been abused for years, so it makes no sense to amend it mid tournament season as players have to change their decks in some cases.

Kirk

[BubbleBoy]

In the middle of major tournament season? 

I know such an errata has been contemplated in the past, but compared to other cards where unforseen situations arise and lead to immediate erratas, the broken state of this card has been abused for years, so it makes no sense to amend it mid tournament season as players have to change their decks in some cases.

Kirk

as well.

[RTSmaniac]

hey at least it still works with The Long Day.

[Red]

Why doesn't it return if there's a band? That's not even broken.

[adotson85]

Why doesn't it return if there's a band? That's not even broken.

Apparently you have never played against this combo in type 2. Sitting there for 45 minutes while your opponent plays cards over and over again in one turn is broken. I knew they would find a way to stop the combo, but i figured they would implement a time limit on each turn to do so. I agree with the decision, but the timing is awful.

[Josh]

Why doesn't it return if there's a band? That's not even broken.

Apparently you have never played against this combo in type 2. Sitting there for 45 minutes while your opponent plays cards over and over again in one turn is broken. I knew they would find a way to stop the combo, but i figured they would implement a time limit on each turn to do so. I agree with the decision, but the timing is awful.

What is the combo exactly?  I've never heard of it.

[Alex_Olijar]

It's essentially endlessly using Warrior's Spear to discard the opponent's deck from what I have gathered.

[Josh]

It's essentially endlessly using Warrior's Spear to discard the opponent's deck from what I have gathered.

Oh yeah.  I remember that.  It came up in a thread of mine...  Didn't know it was in decks.  I was thinking the combo involved drawing an entire deck in one turn or something.

Is the combo impossible to pull off with one hero?  I thought that Soldier of God could do that with Highway, Stillness, Warrior's Spear...  I guess I am confused why the clause about "no other heroes in battle".

[Crashfach2002]

Matt or Jonathan would be better to explain this since they have used it, but it was used on me, so I know how it works.

Basically you start with a provisioned Tekoan Women, and then band to a Gold character.  You pick your own immune evil character (Red Dragon is prefered) to block, and then since Red Dragon entered battle last, you have intitative and play Taking Egypt's Wealth to take any enhancements they might actually be able to use.  Then you have intitative forever since the opponent has nothing to play and is immune to you.  So you play Coat of Many Colors, then play Search & Book of Jashar, then you find all of your Warrior's Spears in your deck and discard the top 5 cards of your opponent's deck.  Then you play a banding card and then Highway (I could have this backwards but it works either way).  The one character you played the cards on is kicked out of battle, but there is still two in battle, and then you procede to then play Coat, 5 Warrior's Spears, 5 Book of Jashars and Highway over and over again, until your entire deck has been discarded but your Lost Souls.  They keep banding cards and Battle Prayer in their hand too just in case they need to retrieve a card from the discard pile!

[Josh]

Matt or Jonathan would be better to explain this since they have used it, but it was used on me, so I know how it works.

Basically you start with a provisioned Tekoan Women, and then band to a Gold character.  You pick your own immune evil character (Red Dragon is prefered) to block, and then since Red Dragon entered battle last, you have intitative and play Taking Egypt's Wealth to take any enhancements they might actually be able to use.  Then you have intitative forever since the opponent has nothing to play and is immune to you.  So you play Coat of Many Colors, then play Search & Book of Jashar, then you find all of your Warrior's Spears in your deck and discard the top 5 cards of your opponent's deck.  Then you play a banding card and then Highway (I could have this backwards but it works either way).  The one character you played the cards on is kicked out of battle but the is still two in battle, and then you procede to then play Coat, 5 Warrior's Spears, 5 Book of Jashars and Highway over and over again.  They keep banding cards and Battle Prayer in their hand too just in case they need to retrieve a card from the discard pile!

Cool.  I think this would still work with Seeker or Soldier of God, Provisions, Warrior's Spear, Highway, and Stillness after the errata.

[Crashfach2002]

You would only be able to do it once!  Don't forget about the rule that a character can only enter battle once per turn!

[crustpope]

Yes that is it more or less.  although it is better to come in with a provisioned women of israel.  The color really doenst matter unless you are afraid they may have crimson enhancements.  an alternative to red dragon is beast of the earth (wa) because most of the characters are women.

Now about the ruling:

This is why it is Bush league.  Two days ago I sent this PM to Bryon.  I wanted to know exactly what happened to Highway when multiple people were in battle 

Can Highway recur another Highway?
« Sent to: Bryon on: May 18, 2010, 09:01:21 AM » Quote Reply Remove   

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have a couple of Highway questions:

Highway
Type: Hero Enh. • Brigade: Yellow • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: Hero may withdraw from battle unharmed. All enhancement cards played may be returned to the player's hand except this one. • Identifiers: OT, Based on Prophecy • Verse: Isaiah 35:8


1. Can Highway recur another copy of itself in a type 2 game? 

2. If not what happens to it if:
A) there is more than one hero in battle and none of the remaining heros are Gold?
B) There is more than one hero in battle and one of them is gold.
C) there is just the one lone hero in battle that withdraws

3.If multiple heros are in battle and none of the remaining heros are gold, does the Highway enhancement that was played get discarded?

I am trying to beat a deck that uses highway recursion and I need to know what parts of this are legal.


Currently the combo uses highway to recur highway, but even if it is in the discard pile, it can be retrieved with battle prayer and then played again  I am just trying to see if there is any way that highway can be "stranded" on a hero in battle where it would be much more difficult to retrieve.

Instead of responding to my PM, he makes this ruling.  I would be surprised if he has consulted anyone else in making this ruling, and If he has involved other people, I would like to know if it was before or after I brought this up in a private message to him.

I would be willing to bet that if I had NOT PM'ed him, that this thread would not be here.  In my opinion, this is Bryon betraying my confidence in his ruling abilites.  What I went to him in private to hammer out exact legality of a combo, he turned around and dismantled in a tyrranical ruling.

IMO, This is NOT how to handle combos that you may not like.  I agree that the ruling should have been made, but it should have been made before the season this year.  Highway has been around since Prophets and people have been abusing it in type II since then so this is nothing new.  The fact that the PTB did not make such a ruling left us to believe that this combo could once again be used.  I spent lots of money securing the cards to this deck under the impresison that it would be legal for this tournament season.

Is Bryon going to reimburse me for those expenses?  I feel that he, or the PTB in general, should if this ruling continues to stand because this is a betrayal.

[Josh]

You would only be able to do it once!  Don't forget about the rule that a character can only enter battle once per turn!

But Highway and Stillness say "may withdraw", not "must withdraw".  Can't you just leave Seeker in battle, play Highway, don't withdraw, play Warrior's Spear, play Stillness, don't withdraw/get back Highway and Warrior's Spear, rinse, repeat, discard opponent's deck?

[crustpope]

You know, you are right.  There is nothing that forces you to with draw from battle.  You can play highway in the same battle without needing to withdraw.

That would fulfill the requriements of the erratta as well!  I cant believe I havent seen this before.

[Lamborghini_diablo]

I know for a fact that the "may withdraw" in there has been adressed before, but I forgot how it ended.

[Professoralstad]

I know for a fact that the "may withdraw" in there has been adressed before, but I forgot how it ended.

I'm pretty sure it ended with me suggesting that it be changed to a cost/effect ability (withdraw hero to return enhancements) and Bryon saying that was a good idea. But nothing official ever came of it I don't believe. That would also stop Asahel combos.

[TechnoEthicist]

So wait, we are saying that now I can play a hero,play a bunch of cards, play highway or stillness, choose not to withdraw, get all of those cards back and repeat? Isn't that worse than the original? Why not they can only get the enhancements back after the battle has ended...which I think was the intent of the errata...

[Red]

So wait, we are saying that now I can play a hero,play a bunch of cards, play highway or stillness, choose not to withdraw, get all of those cards back and repeat? Isn't that worse than the original? Why not they can only get the enhancements back after the battle has ended...which I think was the intent of the errata...

Guys clam up before bryon sees this.