Asahel/Jael & Passover and Unleavened Bread

[Prof Underwood]

I know that some players (including myself) have been enjoying a particularly nasty combo involving setting aside Asahel or Jael with Passover and Unleavened Bread.  When they return they make a rescue attempt, choose the blocker, and then send them to the bottom of their opponent's draw pile (due to P&UB being a triggered ability).

I would just like to announce that this has been discussed on the playtester forum and P&UB will be getting a clarification that says, "Set aside all of your human Heroes for one turn.  Each of them gains the ability 'If none of the characters set aside with P&UB have entered battle since returning from the set aside area, return an Evil Character in play to the bottom of its owner's draw pile.'"

So now it is a gained ability, which activates before choose the blocker.  Therefore, this combo will NOT work at the big tournaments this summer.  So please adjust your decks accordingly.  This info comes straight from Bryon, in case anyone wonders.

[Red Dragon Thorn]

Ouch, while I agree with this beign nerfed, I don't agree with the rewording - surely we can make it sound less confusing than that? I had to read it three times before I understood it.

[Prof Underwood]

...surely we can make it sound less confusing than that?...

I agree.  I would recommend:

"Set aside all of your human Heroes for one turn to return an Evil Character in play to the bottom of its owner's draw pile."

[Sean]

I thought set asides were already gained abilities??

Also, why is this so bad?  Its a two card combo that cannot be negated and takes one turn to set up.  There are lots of two card combos that cannot be negated that don't take one turn to set up.  Are those cards going to get errata too?

[Red Dragon Thorn]

Its a recurable combo, a very easily recurable combo. simply add in Soldiers Prayer, think type 2. Thats six uses.

[Warrior_Monk]

Its a recurable combo, a very easily recurable combo. simply add in Soldiers Prayer, think type 2. Thats six uses.

or Joiada. two turns, yeah, but still OP'd.

the wording on that is horrid. I like the Other Prof's better.

[Sean]

Seems like it would be less effective in T2.  Have people stopped using Kingdoms and Wall?  Have they stopped using Unknown Nation?  Unholy Writ?  The Darkness?

[Red Dragon Thorn]

This gets around Kingdoms and Wall, Writ and UN can be Captured Arked. Darkness is the only really super reliable counter.

[crustpope]

Dang, I was sooooo gooooing to abuse this...Now I have to remake my deck for tomorrow. 

Mark, this means your third place win in TEAMS at the Ohio State is invalidated since you used that combo ILLEGALLY against me.

Sorry, better luck next time 

[ChristianSoldier]

How does it get around wall?

And if that combo comes up against a well built orange deck it will be useless.

[Professoralstad]

The solution seems simpler than that. Currently, P&UB says: "When the next of those heroes enters battle, return an EC in play to bottom of owner's deck." If we simply switch "in play" with "in territory" (as was done with Holy Grail), then we don't have to deal with any extra wording. The only thing this would change (other than the combo) is the ability to band in a PUBbed Hero to return the blocking EC. But I guess I'm not sure if that particular combo saw much use anyway, as there are several counters to it, and are much better CBN battle winners than that.

That said, there are a lot of counters to the current combo (all the cards that can add EC's to the battle afterwards, Writ, CM, etc.) Also, Wall of Protection takes out the options of all but one of the "dare" heroes (a term I just made up for Ehud, Jael, and Asahel. But I do agree that it could potentially be devastating in a well-built T2 deck. I kind of think I'd like to see just how well it would do before it goes though.

In addition to the previous counters, Darius' Decree would ruin this combo as well.

[Red Dragon Thorn]

Yes, the combo is counterable, so are almost all combo's.

[Professoralstad]

Yes, the combo is counterable, so are almost all combo's.

But only a select few have been 'countered' by errata/rule change. I'm just not yet sure if this needs to be one of them. Perhaps it will eventually, but it seems like we could at least wait to see how well it would do in tournaments before it is nerfed. Maybe some people have seen unparalleled success with it so far, but then we should hear their stories before making the final judgment.

Either way, I think if change is needed, my change would be the best, as it doesn't really alter the use of the card in any significant way (except this combo) and it's much easier to understand. Not only that, we already have precedent for such a change (Holy Grail).

[Bryon]

...surely we can make it sound less confusing than that?...

I agree.  I would recommend:

"Set aside all of your human Heroes for one turn to return an Evil Character in play to the bottom of its owner's draw pile."

That doesn't work, since it does not require you to put a hero that you set aside into battle.

@ Sean, the way the card was worded, it was not an ability gained by the heroes.  Rather, it was a response, which happens AFTER all other abilities complete.  Choose blocker happens after all other abilities, but it does not happen after responses.  Since the response happened last, we had a CBN battle winner after a choose the blocker ability.  While the strength of that combo was on the extreme side, that alone was not the sole deciding factor here.  The other was that experienced players (like you) think that the ability is a gained ability, and many didn't see it was a response.

So, in a nutshell, the ability is being ruled a gained ability.  If anyone can think of a better way to say it (but still have it function exactly the same - as an ability gained by all the characters but only gets to be used by the first one in battle, after which all the other characters lose it), please try. 

Tim Maly's suggestion is the one in the top post, and I could not think of a way to improve it.

[Prof Underwood]

Mark, this means your third place win in TEAMS at the Ohio State is invalidated since you used that combo ILLEGALLY against me.

Thankfully, Bryon hadn't gotten back with me yet at that time so I was still allowed to abuse it back then.  As for your deck for tomorrow...better to find out today than at the tourney itself right

[Professoralstad]

What did you think of my suggestion? The function is not exactly the same, but it is exactly how 98% of people use it except for those who run the aformentioned combo (i.e. for TGT territory clearing). And as soon as I read the first suggestion, I thought that it might be the result of Maly's convoluted phraseology.  

[Bryon]

Current:  I attack with Asahel and put an EC under deck.  Then, I can choose the blocker (if one remains).

Yours:  I attack with Asahel and choose the blocker.  Then, I put an EC from territory under deck (if one remains).

So, this plays out differently if there is only one EC in territory (which is a VERY common occurrence, if TGT critics are to be believed). 

[BubbleBoy]

Current:  I attack with Asahel and put an EC under deck.  Then, I can choose the blocker (if one remains).

Yours:  I attack with Asahel and choose the blocker.  Then, I put an EC from territory under deck (if one remains).

So, this plays out differently if there is only one EC in territory (which is a VERY common occurrence, if TGT critics are to be believed). 

The only difference between the two as far as I can see is the scenario in which a CTB hero is making a BC with only one EC in opponent's territory. Am I missing something?

[Prof Underwood]

Current wording:
"Set aside all of your human Heroes for one turn.  Each of them gains the ability 'If none of the characters set aside with P&UB have entered battle since returning from the set aside area, return an Evil Character in play to the bottom of its owner's draw pile.'"

What about:
"Set aside all your human Heroes for 1 turn to gain the ability 'Return an Evil Character to the bottom of its owner's draw pile, if none of the other characters set aside with P&UB have already entered battle since returning from the set aside area.'"

It's not much shorter, but does it make more sense?

[Minister Polarius]

No.

"Set aside all of your human Heroes for one turn. Each of them gains the ability, "Return an Evil Character in play to bottom of deck if no character who gained this ability on the same turn has entered battle yet."

How's that work? It's shorter and less awkward imo.

[Sean]

I'm not seeing how this isn't a gained ability.  The SA is added to the Hero(s) through the set aside; the special ability is gained.

Seems to me that the CTB, PoUB, and order of operations "butt heads."  The order of operations say that you cannot choose the blocker until all gained abilities have been resolved.  Therefore, PoUB triggers before CTB and since there is no block the SA of PoUB has no effect.

[Professoralstad]

I'm not seeing how this isn't a gained ability.  The SA is added to the Hero(s) through the set aside; the special ability is gained.

Seems to me that the CTB, PoUB, and order of operations "butt heads."  The order of operations say that you cannot choose the blocker until all gained abilities have been resolved.  Therefore, PoUB triggers before CTB and since there is no block the SA of PoUB has no effect.

Who has the ability if it is gained? It is a triggered effect, much like Hidden Treasures. The prophet doesn't gain an ability to play an enhancement, the artifact's ability allows you to do that when you attack with a green prophet.

The reason it is how it is currently is that triggered abilities come after CtB in the order of operations.

[Sean]

Who has the ability if it is gained?

The Hero(s) that were set aside.

The reason it is how it is currently is that triggered abilities come after CtB in the order of operations.

Really?  I thought CTB was always last.

I still am not seeing how this isn't a gained ability.  True or false: All set asides are gained abilities.

[lightningninja]

How about this:

"Set aside all your human heroes for one turn. On return, all heroes set aside gain the ability: "The first hero with this ability to enter battle may place one evil character in play to the bottom of its owner's deck. May be used once."

That's simple, makes it a gained ability and everything else you wanted. The maybe be used once clause might not be needed, but I added it just in case.

[Professoralstad]

Who has the ability if it is gained?

The Hero(s) that were set aside.

But PUB says nothing about heroes gaining the ability. It just says what happens when a hero enters battle. Like Hidden Treasures.

The reason it is how it is currently is that triggered abilities come after CtB in the order of operations.

Really?  I thought CTB was always last.

Nope. Not sure when that was ruled upon, but I learned of the difference when someone used Provisions to CtB and then HT to play an enhancement once the blocker was chosen.

I still am not seeing how this isn't a gained ability.  True or false: All set asides are gained abilities.

False. Think of Pentecost and First Fruits. If those are gained abilities, how can you draw before any of your heroes enter battle to activate the drawing ability? The same thing is happening here, it's just that instead of the trigger being "upon return" the trigger is "when one enters battle"