CBN vs. CBN again ...

[Korunks]

My opponent RA's with Phineas, I block with Fallen Warrior.  I play Bringing Fear, Overwhelmed by Philistines, he then responds with Zeal for the Lord.  What happens?


Overwhelmed by Philistines

Type: Evil Enh. • Brigade: Black • Ability: 3 / 3 • Class: None • Special Ability: used by a warrior class Philistine, discard all Heroes in battle. Cannot be negated if a purple Hero is in battle. • Identifiers: None • Verse: I Samuel 31:6 • Availability: Thesaurus ex Preteritus booster packs ()

Bringing Fear

Type: Evil Enh. • Brigade: Black • Ability: 3 / 3 • Class: None • Special Ability: If used by a Philistine, negate all special abilities on characters and good Enhancements. Cannot be negated. • Identifiers: OT, Depicts a Weapon • Verse: I Samuel 17:11 • Availability: Faith of Fathers (Set 6)

Fallen Warrior

Type: Evil Char. • Brigade: Black • Ability: 2 / 2 • Class: Warrior • Special Ability: Fallen Warrior gains the cumulative abilities (*/*) of each Hero he successfully blocks. • Play As: Fallen Warrior gains the cumulative abilities (*/*) of each Hero he successfully blocks (stalemate or defeat). • Identifiers: Generic OT Male Human, Philistia, Fought Earthly Battle • Verse: Isaiah 9:5 • Availability: Kings booster packs (Common)

Phinehas, son of Eleazar

Type: Hero Char. • Brigade: Teal • Ability: 12 / 8 • Class: Warrior • Special Ability: Protect this Hero from capture and conversion. Protect Heroes in your territory and set-aside area from discard abilities. • Identifiers: OT Male Human, Tabernacle High Priest (House of Eleazar) • Verse: Numbers 25:7 • Availability: Priests booster packs (Rare)

Zeal for the Lord

Type: Hero Enh. • Brigade: Teal • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: Interrupt the battle and discard two Evil Characters of different brigades. Cannot be negated if used by Phinehas, son of Eleazar. • Identifiers: None • Verse: Numbers 25:11 • Availability: Priests booster packs (Rare)

[redemption101]

pretty sure that  zeal works
the cbn status means that something like benniah snatches a spear can;t negate the negate all specail abilities.   the Can't be negated on zeal stops the battl by numbers of bringing fear, so it still works. 

thats my opinion so its porbably worth 1 cent 

[Warrior_Monk]

Overwhelmed by Philistines is CBN, so Zeal cannot interrupt it. Phineas Dies. you don't even need to play Bringing Fear. my answer to Overwhelmed by Philistines was Covenant with Phineas. I got confused somewhere on the other thread.
EDIT: oops, read Overwhelmed wrong. it is negatable... ok. sorry. got confused on this thread.

[Ironica]

My opponent RA's with Phineas, I block with Fallen Warrior.  I play Bringing Fear, Overwhelmed by Philistines, he then responds with Zeal for the Lord.  What happens?

CBN can't be negated.

So...

You block with FW.  You play Bringing Fear.  The battle is FBTN.  You then play Overwhelmed. They play Zeal (which is CBN on Phineas and Overwhelmed isn't CBN against Phineas), you die (if they so chooses).

[sk]

Ironica is right, except that BF only negates characters and GEs.

Result: Overwhelmed is interrupted by Zeal, and ECs are discarded.

Bringing Fear tries to negate abilities on characters and GE's.  It negates Fallen's ability, as well as Phinny's protection ability.  It doesn't negate EE's, so Overwhelmed works.  However, when Zeal is played on Phinny, it cannot be negated by Bringing Fear, so Zeal is able to interrupt Overwhelmed's ability and discard Fallen & another EC.

[Ironica]

Overwhelmed by Philistines is CBN, so Zeal cannot interrupt it. Phineas Dies. you don't even need to play Bringing Fear. my answer to Overwhelmed by Philistines was Covenant with Phineas. I got confused somewhere on the other thread.

Psst....your missing something:

Overwhelmed by Philistines

Type: Evil Enh. • Brigade: Black • Ability: 3 / 3 • Class: None • Special Ability: used by a warrior class Philistine, discard all Heroes in battle. Cannot be negated if a purple Hero is in battle. • Identifiers: None • Verse: I Samuel 31:6 • Availability: Thesaurus ex Preteritus booster packs ()

[Warrior_Monk]

I read it as isn't. haha.

[Korunks]

Psst....your missing something:

you are too.  Bringing Fear does not Negate Evil Enhancements only Good ones.  You cannot CBN Discard you are already dead.  You cannot interrupt me because the prevent is CBN.

Bringing Fear

Type: Evil Enh. • Brigade: Black • Ability: 3 / 3 • Class: None • Special Ability: If used by a Philistine, negate all special abilities on characters and good Enhancements. Cannot be negated. • Identifiers: OT, Depicts a Weapon • Verse: I Samuel 17:11 • Availability: Faith of Fathers (Set 6)

[TechnoEthicist]

Why does Zeal's CBN status trump the CBN status of Bringing Fear?

[Ironica]

Psst....your missing something:

you are too.  Bringing Fear does not Negate Evil Enhancements only Good ones.  You cannot CBN Discard you are already dead.  You cannot interrupt me because the prevent is CBN.

I edited my post (didn't read Bringing Fear correctly).

[Cameron the Conqueror]

@Ironica.  Bringing Fear doesn't negate evil enhs.  So...

Block with FW.  Bringing Fear (CBN) is played, good enhs (except CBN enhs) are negated.
Overwhelmed tries to d/c Phin.  Overwhelmed is NOT CBN because Phin =/= purple.
Zeal (CBN) is played, interrupts Overwhelmed, and FW is discarded.

So Zeal works and Hero wins the battle CBN.  Zeal doesn't need to interrupt Bringing Fear, it only interrupts Overwhelmed.  A CBN negate cannot negate a CBN ability.

[Warrior_Monk]

Why does Zeal's CBN status trump the CBN status of Bringing Fear?

it's not interrupting it. Bringing Fear just doesn't affect Zeal.

[sk]

Bringing Fear's ability is never negated.

[BubbleBoy]

Bringing Fear's ability is never negated.

Exactly. It just doesn't do anything in this case.

[Warrior_Monk]

look at it like this
A child is born (can't be negatved) vs Kot (negate all specail)= A child is born wins,

Overwhelmed can be negated or intrupted so trumpet beats overwhelmed.   then its CBN status via its sa, so it oevercomes bringing fear.   

actually, ACiB is cannot NOT be negated, so that's irrelevant.
and your example is flawed because KoT is not CBN.

[Korunks]

I still Disagree.  You are indirectly negating the prevent portion of Bringing Fear.  And by game rule if you cannot interrupt or negate what is causing you to lose by removal you are removed.  Zeal's interrupt is not CBN.  Only the Discard is.  If you cannot interrupt the discard, you lose.  The CBN discard is irrelevant, you are already dead.

Even if the Whole thing was CBN, you are causing an indirect negation of Bringing fear by interupting and discarding the card it was played on, and that is a violation of the CBN rule.

[Cameron the Conqueror]

Zeal's interrupt is not CBN.  Only the Discard is.

That is simply incorrect.  Zeal's entire ability is CBN.

I still Disagree.  You are indirectly negating the prevent portion of Bringing Fear.

No, you aren't.  Bringing Fear is a negate so it negates everything that isn't CBN.  Bringing Fear is CBN itself, but it doesn't matter at all in this example.  Zeal interrupts the battle.  Because Zeal is an interrupt & CBN, nothing except CBN protect/immune/ignore can stop it.

Zeal doesn't interrupt Bringing Fear, but it doesn't matter since Zeal's CBN > Fear's Negate.  Zeal then interrupts ObP and wins the battle.

[Professoralstad]

In the case described, Bringing Fear is not negated, directly or indirectly. It's like rock vs. rock: they can't affect each other, but if you're holding a rock and someone throws a rock at your head, you could still wind up dead (and would probably drop your rock). That's kind of what's happening here, where the rocks are Bringing Fear and Zeal, and the person holding the rock who gets hit in the head is Fallen Warrior (which seems fairly appropriate given the card art).

[Korunks]

It is an indirect negate, you would be interrupting the CBN prevent(even that makes no sense, you cannot interrupt a non interruptable ability), and Discarding the card it was playing making it like Bringing fear was never played(that's how interrupt and discard are played ie. Devourer).  You cannot negate a CBN.

[12tipton3]

i would like this post to end this thread. i am giving the scenario, and having read this thread, the rulebook, (10th anniversary), and the exegetical guide, here is my thoughts. here is how this works. bringing fear can't stop zeal. bringing fear is not cuasing me to loose by removal. ovbp is. i interupt overwhelmed with zeal. (which the whole ability is cbn) you die and unless you do something w/ cm or unkown  nation, i win the lost soul. I AM NOT NEGATING BRINGING FEAR!!!!!!!!!!! I AM INTERUPTING OVERWHELMED. phinehas wins unless overwhelmed somehow becomes cbn.

[Cameron the Conqueror]

i would like this post to end this thread.

You must not understand the honored tradition of forum debate...

Your thoughts are correct; it's what I have been saying.  However, it won't stop anything.

[Warrior_Monk]

i would like this post to end this thread.

You must not understand the honored tradition of forum debate...

I'm not sure I'd say tradition, but in memory of Colin, no, we will not let it drop. this thread must go on!

[Korunks]

i would like this post to end this thread. i am giving the scenario, and having read this thread, the rulebook, (10th anniversary), and the exegetical guide, here is my thoughts. here is how this works. bringing fear can't stop zeal. bringing fear is not cuasing me to loose by removal. ovbp is. i interupt overwhelmed with zeal. (which the whole ability is cbn) you die and unless you do something w/ cm or unkown  nation, i win the lost soul. I AM NOT NEGATING BRINGING FEAR!!!!!!!!!!! I AM INTERUPTING OVERWHELMED. phinehas wins unless overwhelmed somehow becomes cbn.

This is wrong, it is an indirect negate.  For those of you who disagree what is your definition of indirect negate?  You are have to interrupt my prevent to interrupt Overwhelmed by Philistines.  You cannot interrupt my prevent, this makes no logical sense.  And I will continue to argue untill we come to a logical conclusion.  How can something that cannot be interrupted be interrupted?

[BubbleBoy]

  Phinehas enters battle.
  Fallen Warrior Blocks.
  Fallen Warrior has initiative, so he plays Bringing Fear, ALL of which is unnegatable. Phinehas' and FW's abilities are negated, and all characters and good enhancements from now on will be negated, but there are no other immediate effects.
  Fallen Warrior still has initiative, so he plays Overwhelmed by Philistines, which is not negated by Bringing Fear but ALL of which is still negatable because there is no purple hero in battle.
  Phinehas is now being removed from the battle by an opponent, and so has initiative to play a negate or interrupt. Most of the things he plays will be negated by Bringing Fear. However, Zeal for the Lord (ALL of it) is CBN on Phinehas, and so he plays that. It cannot be negated, so Bringing Fear does not negate it, because CBN trumps negate. At this point in battle, the only enhancement that can be interrupted is Overwhelmed, as Bringing Fear is CBN, and so Overwhelmed is interrupted and Bringing Fear is not. Bringing Fear remains functional as Fallen Warrior is discarded by Zeal's ability, which remains CBN.
  The end.

I don't see how there could be any more confusion on the matter. Bringing Fear was never negated, directly or indirectly. It's ability never stopped being active. It's just that Zeal was essentially protected from its ability.

[Cameron the Conqueror]

1.  Can a negate card negate a CBN?  No, so Bringing Fear cannot negate Zeal.
2.  Can an interrupt card interrupt a non-CBN ability?  Yes, so Zeal can interrupt ObP.

You cannot interrupt my prevent, this makes no logical sense.

Yes, you can interrupt a prevent with a CBN interrupt.

For those of you who disagree what is your definition of indirect negate?

It doesn't exist...

You are have to interrupt my prevent to interrupt Overwhelmed by Philistines.

Zeal does not have to interrupt the prevent.  It is CBN.  Overwhelmed tries to prevent Zeal, but it cannot because Zeal CBN.  So Zeal takes effect.



The outline BB just posted is very good; if you still disagree, read that.