ANB and Artifacts

[Warrior_Monk]

Blah blah blah.

Everything is wrong except the last statement.  The trigger only gets tripped to allow the enhancement to activate.  From there you follow normal rules from the rulebook.  It's a simple as that.

Eating food is wrong. Making statements without explaining anything really doesn't get us anywhere.

I think people are misinterpreting the use of the word "activation". From my interpretation, and the usage I was using, an enhancement "activates" when you play it on a character. Yes, cards can have delayed triggers (Lay Down Your Life, etc.), but they "activate" when you first play them. The triggers simply carry out part of the special ability when tripped, they don't "activate" the card again.
Okay, thanks for clarifying. I was referring to when the special ability is carried out. Simple misunderstanding.

The rulebook says that enhancements can only be played on a character of matching brigade and alignment. The only exceptions are cards that state otherwise ("hero may use enhancements of any good brigade this battle", "regardless of brigade", etc.). Agur and Co. do not state otherwise, so there is no reason to believe they change the default way enhancements activate.
That is true. However, the enhancement doesn't "activate" on the hero. It's activated by Agur (haha, now that I understand jmhartz's point, he was right). The trigger is when the hero goes into battle, this happens. Not it is played when the hero goes into battle. The enhancement only needs the trigger to be met, no other requirements are put on it. The enhancement isn't played by the hero. It's special ability is triggered by the hero. Because Agur says so.

Yeah, Elders would be nice on this one. I'd be so pumped if I can abuse this, but I was told that it wouldn't work, and it makes sense...

[Professoralstad]

Here's the way I see it:

The most intuitive way for me to read the situation is that the person controlling the character controls the enhancement's activation, i.e. the combo works. That would be how I would have ruled it prior to reading Tim's explanation in the other thread. I still find that way to be more intuitive, but I figured that since that would potentially break the game with the introduction of Nazareth, I went along with Tim's explanation, and thought the matter had been settled. Since apparently it is not, I will put forth my opinion:

Agur (et al) places the enhancement, just like any other place ability where the enhancement doesn't activate: Storehouse, Golgotha, etc. The Hero enters battle, controlled by your opponent. I agree with those that have argued that enhancements, by game rule, have to activate on characters. Enhancements like Lifting the Curse and Herod's Treachery were activated when they were played, by the character they were used by, so they are different than Agur and friends' placed enhancements. Just because all abilities on Lifting the Curse may not complete when it is first activated, doesn't mean that it doesn't have an active ability.

Of course, I'm not 100% sure on this, and there has been elder support of both sides. What would be interesting is for someone to build a deck in RTS that involves a combo that would abuse this idea, and play it against a normal T2 deck (or T1, if you're so inclined). Since the combo requires a lot of setup, it's not like a player in game would really have the element of surprise before execution anyway, so I don't think the fact that the normal deck player would be at too much of an advantage as far as knowing what's coming (unless he teched his deck against it, which kind of defeats the purpose). It's not necessarily because rulings should be based off of combos, but since this one is effectively a toss-up, the power of such a combo may factor into how it is ruled. Any volunteers?

[Warrior_Monk]

Agur (et al) places the enhancement, just like any other place ability where the enhancement doesn't activate: Storehouse, Golgotha, etc. The Hero enters battle, controlled by your opponent. I agree with those that have argued that enhancements, by game rule, have to activate on characters. Enhancements like Lifting the Curse and Herod's Treachery were activated when they were played, by the character they were used by, so they are different than Agur and friends' placed enhancements. Just because all abilities on Lifting the Curse may not complete when it is first activated, doesn't mean that it doesn't have an active ability.

So, just to be clear...if you Gold Shield a character that has an enhancement that was placed by Agur and Co. the enhancement will not activate. Correct?

[SomeKittens]

@ProfAlstad: PM sent.

[STAMP]

Blah blah blah.

Everything is wrong except the last statement.  The trigger only gets tripped to allow the enhancement to activate.  From there you follow normal rules from the rulebook.  It's a simple as that.

Eating food is wrong. Making statements without explaining anything really doesn't get us anywhere.

Why do I have to explain the rules?  Here, I'll give you the Rawrlolsauce method:

Step 1: Place Agur in battle, activate SA.
Step 2: Place enhancement from hand on hero in territory.
Step 3: Add trigger #1 - enhancement activates when hero enters battle in future.
Step 4: Add trigger #2 - after enhancement activates, discard enhancement.
Step 5: Follow rules in Redemption rulebook that have been around since 1995 on how to play an enhancement.
Step 6: Wash.  Rinse.  Repeat.
Step 7: Profit!

Here's the way I see it:

The most intuitive way for me to read the situation is that the person controlling the character controls the enhancement's activation, i.e. the combo works. That would be how I would have ruled it prior to reading Tim's explanation in the other thread. I still find that way to be more intuitive, but I figured that since that would potentially break the game with the introduction of Nazareth, I went along with Tim's explanation, and thought the matter had been settled. Since apparently it is not, I will put forth my opinion:

Agur (et al) places the enhancement, just like any other place ability where the enhancement doesn't activate: Storehouse, Golgotha, etc. The Hero enters battle, controlled by your opponent. I agree with those that have argued that enhancements, by game rule, have to activate on characters. Enhancements like Lifting the Curse and Herod's Treachery were activated when they were played, by the character they were used by, so they are different than Agur and friends' placed enhancements. Just because all abilities on Lifting the Curse may not complete when it is first activated, doesn't mean that it doesn't have an active ability.

Professoralstad is correct.

What would be interesting is for someone to build a deck in RTS that involves a combo that would abuse this idea, and play it against a normal T2 deck (or T1, if you're so inclined). Since the combo requires a lot of setup, it's not like a player in game would really have the element of surprise before execution anyway, so I don't think the fact that the normal deck player would be at too much of an advantage as far as knowing what's coming (unless he teched his deck against it, which kind of defeats the purpose). It's not necessarily because rulings should be based off of combos, but since this one is effectively a toss-up, the power of such a combo may factor into how it is ruled. Any volunteers?

Done.  Since 11/2010.  But not posting it because then there'd be a lot of crybabies.  IF I get the chance I'll bring it to Nats, let the PTB ban it after the 1st round, then become a Stepford Wife and play Disciples like everyone else.   

[Warrior_Monk]

You missed the second to last step:
???

Here's the way I see it:

The most intuitive way for me to read the situation is that the person controlling the character controls the enhancement's activation, i.e. the combo works. That would be how I would have ruled it prior to reading Tim's explanation in the other thread. I still find that way to be more intuitive, but I figured that since that would potentially break the game with the introduction of Nazareth, I went along with Tim's explanation, and thought the matter had been settled. Since apparently it is not, I will put forth my opinion:

Agur (et al) places the enhancement, just like any other place ability where the enhancement doesn't activate: Storehouse, Golgotha, etc. The Hero enters battle, controlled by your opponent. I agree with those that have argued that enhancements, by game rule, have to activate on characters. Enhancements like Lifting the Curse and Herod's Treachery were activated when they were played, by the character they were used by, so they are different than Agur and friends' placed enhancements. Just because all abilities on Lifting the Curse may not complete when it is first activated, doesn't mean that it doesn't have an active ability.

Professoralstad is correct.

Since when do non-elders say that an elder is correct? Isn't supposed to be the other way around?

On a serious note, he basically just said that he was going to change the rule. I love rule changes in favor of combos.

[SomeKittens]

On a serious note, he basically just said that he was going to change the rule. I love rule changes in favor of combos.

Epic win FTW.  I'm always in favor of adding more insanity to the game.

[Warrior_Monk]

On a serious note, he basically just said that he was going to change the rule. I love rule changes in favor of combos.

Epic win FTW.  I'm always in favor of adding more insanity to the game.

Especially when it involves ANB.

[Professoralstad]

Agur (et al) places the enhancement, just like any other place ability where the enhancement doesn't activate: Storehouse, Golgotha, etc. The Hero enters battle, controlled by your opponent. I agree with those that have argued that enhancements, by game rule, have to activate on characters. Enhancements like Lifting the Curse and Herod's Treachery were activated when they were played, by the character they were used by, so they are different than Agur and friends' placed enhancements. Just because all abilities on Lifting the Curse may not complete when it is first activated, doesn't mean that it doesn't have an active ability.

So, just to be clear...if you Gold Shield a character that has an enhancement that was placed by Agur and Co. the enhancement will not activate. Correct?

I would say that is correct. Agur says that the enhancement activates when the character enters battle, however, since the enhancement can't activate on a character that it doesn't match, then the enhancement is just discarded. It's kind of like when you play a card that forces your opponent to draw with him being at the hand limit...the ability says to draw, and he can't, so he doesn't. That is, a game rule that doesn't allow you to take an action that you are required by an ability to perform trumps the ability.

On a serious note, he basically just said that he was going to change the rule. I love rule changes in favor of combos.

Not quite...I said that I would support a certain point of view regarding the question. I don't really know what the rule is for sure, I'm just saying what my intuition would lead me to believe. I don't have THAT kind of power.

[STAMP]

Since when do non-elders say that an elder is correct? Isn't supposed to be the other way around?

Point acknowledged.  The most accurate and truthful response should have been:


Marcus is correct.

[Minister Polarius]

Step one: place ANB on someone.
Step two: Grapes
Step three: they can't attack you until they can get rid of GoJ and King Reheboam

I think the threat of massive combo is much more effective than the combo itself.

[YourMathTeacher]

IF I get the chance I'll bring it to Nats, let the PTB ban it after the 1st round, then become a Stepford Wife and play Disciples like everyone else.   

I play Daniel heroes.

[Josh]

Step one: place ANB on someone.
Step two: Grapes
Step three: they can't attack you until they can get rid of GoJ and King Reheboam

I think the threat of massive combo is much more effective than the combo itself.

I heard a rumor that ANB now has a "If making a rescue attempt..." clause so that you can't use a side battle to activate it.  I actually made a deck earlier this week where I blocked with my Rehoboam, made my Cherubim/ET fight my own green hero, and I played Sent to Serve with ET and placed ANB on my green hero, which immediately entered battle and activated.  I also had Nazareth and Rain Becomes Dust in my territory, but my opponent reminded me of this clause in the errata of ANB.

[Warrior_Monk]

Doesn't matter. They make a rescue attempt, you block with Rehoboam, give them a hero with ANB on it. They're making a rescue attempt.

[RTSmaniac]

Does the above example work? even though the current battle is a side battle?

[Minister Polarius]

Forgot about that, but Stalks of Flax and Complainers is still 2 turns of blocking.

[SomeKittens]

Here's the way I see it:

The most intuitive way for me to read the situation is that the person controlling the character controls the enhancement's activation, i.e. the combo works. That would be how I would have ruled it prior to reading Tim's explanation in the other thread. I still find that way to be more intuitive, but I figured that since that would potentially break the game with the introduction of Nazareth, I went along with Tim's explanation, and thought the matter had been settled. Since apparently it is not, I will put forth my opinion:

Agur (et al) places the enhancement, just like any other place ability where the enhancement doesn't activate: Storehouse, Golgotha, etc. The Hero enters battle, controlled by your opponent. I agree with those that have argued that enhancements, by game rule, have to activate on characters. Enhancements like Lifting the Curse and Herod's Treachery were activated when they were played, by the character they were used by, so they are different than Agur and friends' placed enhancements. Just because all abilities on Lifting the Curse may not complete when it is first activated, doesn't mean that it doesn't have an active ability.

Of course, I'm not 100% sure on this, and there has been elder support of both sides. What would be interesting is for someone to build a deck in RTS that involves a combo that would abuse this idea, and play it against a normal T2 deck (or T1, if you're so inclined). Since the combo requires a lot of setup, it's not like a player in game would really have the element of surprise before execution anyway, so I don't think the fact that the normal deck player would be at too much of an advantage as far as knowing what's coming (unless he teched his deck against it, which kind of defeats the purpose). It's not necessarily because rulings should be based off of combos, but since this one is effectively a toss-up, the power of such a combo may factor into how it is ruled. Any volunteers?

Any word on this?  Is it being worked on/ruled to work/ruled to not work?

[crustpope]

I am becoming more and more convinced that a placed enhancement is controlled by the player that placed it.

in almost every other instance the player that placed the enhancement controlls the enhancement.  Even when placed on heroes and EC's those enhancements are not controlled by the other opponent when that character enters battle.

While I would really like for this to work, I am almost 100% positive that ANB placed on my hero and given to my oppoent to make a RA with will not be seen as an enhancement used by them but instead it will be seen as an enhancement used by me so My nazareth will not protect me from it.

[STAMP]

I am becoming more and more convinced...no, 100% positive...that if you all give me your unspent money, that you still control it.   

[crustpope]

I am becoming more and more convinced...no, 100% positive...that if you all give me your unspent money, that you still control it.   

While I see your point in real life, we are talking game mechanics instead.  Any other placed enhancement is controlled by the person who placed it and not by the person who happens to be controlling a character with an enhancement placed on it.  True, most of these enhancements have been activated previously (either territory class or played in battle etc, and Agur N co merely place the enhancement without activating it so maybe there is a distinction to be made there.

But you will have to make a very good case for one group of heroes to place and use enhancements far differently than any other in the game.

[STAMP]

Well, there is a difference that I've already stated many times.  It's a very distinct difference.  It also falls within the current ruleset.  And it's logical.

Gil Grissom would even say, "Case closed."

[Gabe]

I dug up Tim's ruling on the placed enhancements, which includes his reasoning.  As far as I know it's the only elder ruling on the topic.

Hey,

With all of the "place an enhancement on a character, it activates when that character enters battle" abilities the player that placed the enhancement carries it out even if an opponent controls the character it is on when that happens.  So this won't work like you want it to with those cards.  Sent to Serve is worded slightly differently so it might work, but I'm not sure.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

Some of the elders are discussing this.  When a conclusion is reached one of us will let the community know.

[JDS]

I know this is an old ruling but I forget: if I have a unique character in my territory, can I still capture that same unique character from my opponent?

[Minister Polarius]

Yes. Banding is the only ability that you can't use to force two of the same unique character, because it has a specific exception in the rule. Any other ability can be used to force a situation in which you must Discard all but one of the unique characters you control.

[RTSmaniac]

I always forget that one too