Help me understand shuffling without negating

[happyjosiah]

This came up in an RTS game between me and Gabe, so I would assume he had this correct, but I didn't quite "get it."

I rescued with Nathan who allows me to shuffle an evil card in my territory to force him to do the same. I did so. The only evil card in his territory, which was Philistine Outpost. This evil fortress allows him, when attacked, to get an evil character from his deck to block with.

My interpretation was that Nathan's abililty completes before any abilities that trigger "upon being attacked" so he cannot do this until it is too late and his fortress is already shuffled back into his deck. He maintained that since it was shuffled but not negated, he could still use it's ability.

I would think that if there were a theoretical hero that allowed you to shuffle an activated artifact when they went into battle, they would be able to shuffle Unholy Writ and not be captured. Even though it completes the trigger of me having a hero in battle, I would think the heros ability must complete before anything else.

I realize that abilities are not tied to the card being there. For example, Jacob bands to Captain, if you Christian Martyr Jacob, Captain still stays. If you Christian Martyr Captain, FBN still stays. But this is because it has already gone into battle and thus been activated. Conversely, ongoing abilities, such as immunity, are tied to the character. Angel of the Lord on Prince of this World allows a lone hero to be successful.

To my mind, a triggered ability is closer to an ongoing ability. It can't trigger if it is gone before the condition is met.

Am I thinking about this totally wrong?

[adamfincher]

umm u never mentioned the fortress...

[Lamborghini_diablo]

I would agree with you that Nathan could shuffle Phillistine Outpost before he is allowed to use it. "being attacked" or "beginning a battle" is the moment when all abilities are finished activating on heroes/wc enhs/placed enhs.

Good play.

[crustpope]

I agree with you.  Gabe should not have been able to uset he fortress.  True its ability was not negated, but it was no longer in Play when its ability would have activated so it is a "poor mans" way of negating the fortress.

[frisian9]

This is how I see it. I would very much like to work through this to get a better understanding of how triggers on an out of play card are interpretted.

I assume the fortress Philistine Outpost was active in your game. Being a fortress, it's ability is always active. The "when you are attacked" phrase it starts with is an ongoing ability. So, when you started the battle phase, it was active and continues to function through the end of that phase unless it is negated. I think the key here is that the trigger is ongoing, requiring it to be negated to stop working when discarded later. Philistine Outpost is waiting for its trigger condition to be met.

When you discarded Philistine Outpost, it was not negated so its ability continues to function and its trigger condition is met (Nathan attacked). When triggers are met, it simply means it is next to have the rest of the ability activated - but must wait for Nathan's ability to finish first. However, once Philistine Outpost is discarded, it is out of play. The "you may discard this card" is what Philistine Outpost activates once Nathan's ability is completed, but its special ability can't find "this card" because it is out of play. Nothing happens because the condition of "discard this card" can't be met - you can't then "search discard pile for a generic Philistine and place it in your territory".

In short, Philistine Outpost does trigger and activate. However, the particular special ability condition can't be met since it can't be targeted at the time it is activated.

Does this sound logical?

Mike

[Lamborghini_diablo]

I thought Philly Outpost could also search the deck for something to discard as well, not JUST discard itself.

[frisian9]

*edit* Ah. I see that now.

Phillistine Outpost When you are attacked, you may discard this card or an evil card from deck to search discard pile for a generic Philistine and place it in your territory. Protect Sites from being placed beneath decks.

That can operate even though Philistine Outpost is in the discard pile. You simply can't discard Philistine Outpost.

Is that how you see it also?

Mike

[happyjosiah]

edit: nevermind

[frisian9]

The ability works because it was ongoing through the end of that phase without being negated.

Mike

[crustpope]

Yes and it can even d/c itself because it is an evil card that is now shuffled into your deck so it can still target itself.

I stand corrected on my previous statement

[happyjosiah]

I guess I just didn't see it that way.
I didn't think the "when you are attacked" trigger could even activate until it is too late.

[Red Dragon Thorn]

Doesn't that mean that Spy + Sword works?

[frisian9]

Sword If rescue attempt fails, opponent must discard a card from hand without using it.

The "if" is a trigger condition, with the SA activated by the trigger "opponent must discard a card from hand without using it". If it (1) is a rescue attempt, and (2) it fails, then yes, you discard a card from hand without using it, right?

Since "A Hero that withdraws from battle before a blocker is presented constitutes a failed rescue attempt or battle challenge." [REG] is true, Spy's triggered condition activates the rest of the ability.

Is this scenario something that hasn't been practiced this way?

Mike

[Alex_Olijar]

The ruling has been that Spy withdraws before Sword activates.

[Red Dragon Thorn]

Correct, It was ruled that because Spy is no longer in battle Sword never gets to go.

To Elaborate, Even though Sword "Triggers to be activated" upon entering battle when Spy Completes, Sword is no longer in battle to actually activate, I feel the same thing happens with Outpost - It Triggers to activate when the hero enters battle, but when the order of operations says it can actually activate its no longer in territory to do so.

[frisian9]

That is easily possible. I've missed a good portion of the last year. I'll go back and look up old posts (if they are available).

Mike

[Lamborghini_diablo]

 I am fine with sword not working, because that means we are sticking to the Order of Abilities. Consistancy ftw.

[Alex_Olijar]

As far as I know, it's been ruled that way since the combos inception. I believe Kirk was the first one to try it and shortly afterward it was ruled illegal. Not sure how soon after Priests this was though.

[Red Dragon Thorn]

http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/index.php?topic=16592.0

This is the most recent thread mike (even though its completely off topic)

Also, I modified my first post

[happyjosiah]

So where does that leave us as far as shuffling the outpost?

[Gabe]

Weapons don't work on Spy when he withdraws because there is not a Hero in battle for the Enhancement to activate on.  Not because the weapon hasn't triggered.