Unknown Nation + Assyrian Archer

[Captain Kirk]

I block a rescue attempt with Assyrian Archer, and my opponent plays Plague of Frogs.  I then proceed to use my active Unknown Nation to pull out Assyrian Archer. 

Is this a legal play for T1?  I know that a character cannot enter battle again on the same turn is the character leaves battle voluntarily or by force. 

However, how does this relate to T2 play when I have 5 copies of Assyrian Archer?  Does this rule differ for generic characters?  My opponent could argue that "you already used that copy of Assyrian Archer this battle, you can't do that."  Obviously, unless there is only 1 copy left in the deck, there is no real way to tell if it is the same copy of Archer or not, provided the draw pile is shuffled well.

Lets make this more convoluted for T2 play.  I bet this would never happen, but it popped into my mind when thinking about this situation.  Lets say I had all 5 copies of Assyrian Archer banded in battle together in T2.  My opponent proceeds to shuffle three of them into my deck with Plague of Frogs.  I play Love of Money and Unknown Nation x3 to pull out those three copies again.  Is that legal since they are generic?

Kirk

[Professoralstad]

Here's what I found in the REG:

If a character is forced to withdraw (e.g., Darkness (Warriors)) or withdraws from a battle voluntarily (e.g., Highway), it may not re-enter the current battle (see Withdraw in the glossary of the rulebook [p. 54]).  Moreover, the character may enter on a new battle on the same turn (e.g., The Long Day).

Since any amount of the same generic character can be in battle anyway, logic tells me that you could get any but the same copy of the Archer back (which only matters if there is only one in your deck) just as you could use UN before Archer is shuffled to get a different one out.

With unique characters, I would say you can't get any copy back, since that "character" (read: Biblical/Biblical-ish person) has already been in battle.

I don't know of any rulings that would go for or against this idea, but this way seems to make the most sense.

[frisian9]

Well thought out. I'll buy that.

Mike

[RTSmaniac]

wouldnt the shuffled unique character be reset and therefore a legal target for Uknown Nation?

[Mr.Hiatus]

You'll buy that...? That is not how it was ruled. It is ruled that if a character is shuffled back into your deck or put on top of your deck or ANYWHERE in your deck it is reset, and can re-enter battle. The Long Day is different because it was never reset that is a different scenario. You could get shuffled and use Unknown Nation to get back the SAME EC that was just in battle. If a character touches your deck it is reset and can re-enter battle.
And to add more fuel to the fire I think it was ruled that if a character gets sent to your hand it is also reset and thus can enter battle again.

[Captain Kirk]

I know that it was ruled you cannot pull the same unique character back into battle with Unknown Nation after Plague of Frogs, since I guess its presence is forever time-stamped in battle, or something to that effect.  But isn't it difficult to rule the same for generic characters?

Kirk

[Professoralstad]

You'll buy that...? That is not how it was ruled. It is ruled that if a character is shuffled back into your deck or put on top of your deck or ANYWHERE in your deck it is reset, and can re-enter battle. The Long Day is different because it was never reset that is a different scenario. You could get shuffled and use Unknown Nation to get back the SAME EC that was just in battle. If a character touches your deck it is reset and can re-enter battle.
And to add more fuel to the fire I think it was ruled that if a character gets sent to your hand it is also reset and thus can enter battle again.

I believe the rule is that the character returns to face value when it enters a deck, discard pile or hand. It does not mean that the character was all of the sudden never in the current battle.

Where was it ruled otherwise? As I said, I couldn't find any rulings for or against, so I suggested what makes the most sense to me personally. If you have an official ruling that says otherwise, then perhaps that's how it is.

FWIW, if a hero withdraws from battle after playing The Long Day, the REG currently says that that hero can start the new battle. Has that been changed?

If a character is forced to withdraw (e.g., Darkness (Warriors)) or withdraws from a battle voluntarily (e.g., Highway), it may not re-enter the current battle (see Withdraw in the glossary of the rulebook [p. 54]).  Moreover, the character may enter on a new battle on the same turn (e.g., The Long Day).

I know that it was ruled you cannot pull the same unique character back into battle with Unknown Nation after Plague of Frogs, since I guess its presence is forever time-stamped in battle, or something to that effect.  But isn't it difficult to rule the same for generic characters?

Kirk

I guess it might be difficult to rule with generic characters in Type II, since you would have to prove that you have more than one Archer, but most of the time in Type I it would be pretty easy to determine. I think if it does stay as I suggested, a Type II player would have to simply show an extra copy of the Archer while searching with UN. I would be fine either way with generic characters, but I do think Unique should only be allowed to enter once per battle, no matter where the character comes from.

[Captain Kirk]

FWIW, if a hero withdraws from battle after playing The Long Day, the REG currently says that that hero can start the new battle. Has that been changed?

There have been several long discussion in which The Long Day has been brought up.  The consensus was that "moreover" implies a clarification, rather than an exception, and that the word "not" was probably missing from the at statement.  Schaef and Bryon agreed that this should be the case, but nothing official was ever decided.  I think it needs to be decided before nationals.

One thread: http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/index.php?topic=15409.msg240878#msg240878
The other: http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/index.php?topic=14901.msg233537#msg233537

Kirk

[The Guardian]

I remember very well that it was ruled that you cannot use Unknown Nation to search for a unique EC after it got shuffled while blocking.

I was the one who said it should not be allowed, and Bryon agreed with me. I'm not sure if that was one of the threads that got lost in the purge.

[Captain Kirk]

I remember very well that it was ruled that you cannot use Unknown Nation to search for a unique EC after it got shuffled while blocking.

Did they decide anything about generic characters?

Kirk

[Professoralstad]

I was the one who said it should not be allowed, and Bryon agreed with me. I'm not sure if that was one of the threads that got lost in the purge.

Hooray for Alstadian logic! (wow, our last name makes a cool adjective). Any idea on generic characters?

FWIW, if a hero withdraws from battle after playing The Long Day, the REG currently says that that hero can start the new battle. Has that been changed?

There have been several long discussion in which The Long Day has been brought up.  The consensus was that "moreover" implies a clarification, rather than an exception, and that the word "not" was probably missing from the at statement.  Schaef and Bryon agreed that this should be the case, but nothing official was ever decided.  I think it needs to be decided before nationals.

One thread: http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/index.php?topic=15409.msg240878#msg240878
The other: http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/index.php?topic=14901.msg233537#msg233537

Kirk

I think I remember reading those, but I didn't think any change was finalized. I think that it makes sense Biblically if the current REG rule stayed, as the Israelite Army didn't bring in the reserves with their extra daytime, they kept fighting. But I suppose with the amount of abuse it can inflict when played right, it may not be a bad idea to change it. I remember I used to use that combo with ET/Claudia vs. my Red Dragon/Claudius to draw my entire deck in a turn, but that was before I could discard my opponents deck with good enhancments.

[Captain Kirk]

I believe they would rule on The Long Day mid-nationals and spoil some poor player's fun, if they don't rule on the boards sooner.

Kirk