Author Topic: OK, I'll ask. How do you personally stop "Speed"?  (Read 4525 times)

ebridge

  • Guest
OK, I'll ask. How do you personally stop "Speed"?
« on: October 13, 2009, 10:07:51 PM »
0
I started an article a couple months back about why I don't like Garden Tomb (even though I have used it too).  I recently wrote a piece about all tournament decks looking the same to me (but having only played for 14 months or so many said there's more variety now than ever).

Now I want to directly address the deck that I'm seeing so often now.  Maharai bands to Claudia bands Ethiopian Treasurer and then proceeds to draw 8-9 cards, OR Claudia bands to Simeon bands to Jacob (prophet) bands to COTH (also prophet) and its by the numbers except banding .  Throw in first fruits and pentecost to set aside and immediately draw 3-4 cards.  Throw in Hur + Gifts of the Maji to draw even more cards.  Basically I'm seeing decks that with the right draw of cards can have their 50 card deck drawn out in 5 or so turns.  Basically its all about getting the dominants before your opponent does, and creating banding chains so large that nothing can stop them.  Throw in some cannot be negated battle winners on offense and defense (a small defense), and there you go.

I know the 16 cards at one time rule was meant to slow this down.  Did it work?

More importantly, do I have to make a speed deck now (and I do have all the needed cards except a couple cheapies) just to compete? 

If not, how do you stop it?

Artifacts - Any defensive artifact is fighting a losing battle, in my opinion.  Unholy Writ, Household Idols, Asherah Pole, Confusion of Mind and Golden Calf, Darius' Decree are all vulnerable to DON or captured ark being played before the rescue attempt is made (Darius' Decree is the exception and is fun when it works).  Also, I don't know of a way to protect these "evil" artifacts from discard like you can with Glory of the Lord on temple artifacts.  Do I need to have all 6 of these (and others I have not thought of) in my deck?

Sites - I admit that sites MIGHT slow "speed" down a little.  But with "cannot be negated" Hur forcing me to draw seven cards and Mayhem now making me draw 6 more, site lockout is suffering.  You also have the hopper LS, Am Slave, and Revealer LS making it hard for site lockout (and probably more that I have not thought of).  And of course your opponent will likely have an Ends of the Earth, Dragon Raid, Promised Land, etc in their deck.  Keep in mind they also have many different brigade colors.  There are some great anti-site enhancements, but in a FBTN battle how can you play them?

Evil Characters/Enhancements - Again, making the battle FBTN except banding makes Uzzah, KOT, etc, worthless.  Naaman and others like him are helpful because of their Cannot be Negated stuff, but it makes them a huge dominant magnet too (which Torment will not save them from).

Dominants - Who do you target?  I assume you Martyr COTH, but a well timed Brass Serpent or Chariot of Fire will have him back pretty soon.

One of our younger local playgroup members asked me earlier this week, "What can you do against speed?", and I really didn't have a good answer for him.  I refuse to make the same deck myself on principal and wanting a little more of a personal touch in my decks.  So those of you that have come up with the strategy to defeat "Speed", could you please share with the rest of us how you did it?

Let me conclude by saying that I do respect and admire the players that use these speed decks, and I get along very well with these people as they are just as friendly as every other Redemption player I know.  So please no one take any of this as a personal attack against your play-style.  I'm just tired of losing to this type of deck and I'm seeking the advice of other wiser and more experienced players, and I think this forum is the proper place to seek this guidance.

Thank you all for your understanding and your help.

Offline Rawrlolsauce!

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4919
  • hhhehehe
    • -
    • North Central Region
Re: OK, I'll ask. How do you personally stop "Speed"?
« Reply #1 on: October 13, 2009, 10:46:33 PM »
0
Note: This response is over the 5000 character limit, so this is post 1 of 2.

Basically I'm seeing decks that with the right draw of cards can have their 50 card deck drawn out in 5 or so turns.  Basically its all about getting the dominants before your opponent does, and creating banding chains so large that nothing can stop them.
Fast drawing is the basic idea of speed. You want to control the game, and dominants tend to do that when it is a short game. The banding chain isn't universal in speed. I've used it before, and was very successful, but not all speed decks use it. I've actually found my Z's Temple/Prophets speed to be more effective, as FBTN is fairly easy to defeat with the many CBN characters, enhancements, Holy of Holies, Confusion of Mind, Large defense bands, etc. Whereas my Z's Temple/Prophets just walk in, protected from everything, and play a battle winner.

Throw in some cannot be negated battle winners on offense and defense (a small defense), and there you go.
Cannot be negated isn't really necessary, but it is often used. Spend tends to require multiple brigades, so people use choose the best enhancements for each brigade; many of which are CBN. You can always expect a small defense from speed though, usually consisting of stand alone characters and maybe a stray enhancement or two.

I know the 16 cards at one time rule was meant to slow this down.  Did it work?
The response you'll get will vary from person to person. I very rarely would have more than 16 cards in my hand before this rule, so I doubt it is doing much to speed. Speed decks tend to have many characters and fortresses, so even if I'm nearing 16 cards 95% of the time I can lay something down so I have room to draw more.

More importantly, do I have to make a speed deck now (and I do have all the needed cards except a couple cheapies) just to compete?  
No. Speed is dominant, but isn't unstoppable. You can still win, even high level tournaments, with a solid deck, good skills, and a bit of luck. I play speed and I never win any games (except against Ring Wraith, in which case I never lose), so I would know ;D

If not, how do you stop it?
Rain Becomes Dust, Darius's Decree, good dominant timing (Mayhem alone can wipe speed dead), Solid Defense, among many other things. The most important thing to remember when your opponent is playing a speed deck is to be very aggressive. They don't have a lot of defense, often they will only have a few characters and no enhancements (occasionally Haman's Plot or Herod's Treachery depending on the ruling), so they won't be able to hold you off very long.

Artifacts - Any defensive artifact is fighting a losing battle, in my opinion.  Unholy Writ, Household Idols, Asherah Pole, Confusion of Mind and Golden Calf, Darius' Decree are all vulnerable to DON or captured ark being played before the rescue attempt is made (Darius' Decree is the exception and is fun when it works).
You can activate Lampstand of the Sanctuary to protect from DON.
You can have multiple artifacts active at once to help protect from Captured Ark.
Remember though, often times them switching artifacts (to activate CA) may be to your advantage. Especially if there was a COM or Writ you couldn't get by.
hhhehehe

Offline Rawrlolsauce!

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4919
  • hhhehehe
    • -
    • North Central Region
Re: OK, I'll ask. How do you personally stop "Speed"?
« Reply #2 on: October 13, 2009, 10:47:54 PM »
0
Note: This response is over the 5000 character limit, so this is post 2 of 2.

Also, I don't know of a way to protect these "evil" artifacts from discard like you can with Glory of the Lord on temple artifacts.
Speed will rarely use LUG or other discarders, so I tend to only worry about Captured Ark and DON. Just activate Lampstand, and multiple other artifacts. You may just have to grin and bear it, though. Usually artifact manipulation doesn't play a huge role in the game. (Remember: The 2009 2nd place nationals deck did not include DON)

Do I need to have all 6 of these (and others I have not thought of) in my deck?
No, no artifacts are required. Although, I tend to use DD, Writ, Lampstand, and COM often and they tend to help more times than not.

There are some great anti-site enhancements, but in a FBTN battle how can you play them?
You can create side battles. I believe that Philistine Territory Enhancement steals sites. OR, you can make sure the battle isn't FBTN (IE: Holy of Holies, Confusion of Mind, etc).

Site Decks are very tough against speed it seems like. Sure, I make you draw souls, but I can't make you draw them fast enough, and with speed I like to rescue a soul every turn. Speed decks also tend to be small, so I rarely get more than 2-3 access cards in my deck.

Evil Characters/Enhancements - Again, making the battle FBTN except banding makes Uzzah, KOT, etc, worthless.  Naaman and others like him are helpful because of their Cannot be Negated stuff, but it makes them a huge dominant magnet too (which Torment will not save them from).
If your having trouble against FBTN speed, add Holy of Holies, COM, etc. The CBN characters are great, and waste your opponent's dominants. Make sure to save your dominants for the characters giving you trouble, and DON their Chariots if they flip it up (I've never seen Brass Serpant in a speed deck outside my own). You'll have 'em gasping for air ;).

Dominants - Who do you target?  I assume you Martyr COTH, but a well timed Brass Serpent or Chariot of Fire will have him back pretty soon.
Most have Chariot's, but I've never seen Brass Serpant in a speed deck aside from my own. I don't really like either cards in speed decks, if my opponent has been able to kill more than one of my characters (CM) I've failed my objective.

So those of you that have come up with the strategy to defeat "Speed", could you please share with the rest of us how you did it?
I find the most effective way to beat speed is just to play well. If your deck is solid and you don't make any mistakes, it'll be a struggle for both of you (unless the draws are uneven ;)).

Let me conclude by saying that I do respect and admire the players that use these speed decks, and I get along very well with these people as they are just as friendly as every other Redemption player I know.  
You wouldn't get along with me. I'd throw snow balls at you and then draw 3 more cards. Yeah, and then I'd shout "Aww, lost soul!" to get you excited (beings you'll finally be able to attack me) only to throw the hopper at you. I'm mean like that  8)
« Last Edit: October 13, 2009, 10:51:19 PM by Rawrlolsauce! »
hhhehehe

Offline batman6768

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 436
  • "we've survived the battle that we've fought"
Re: OK, I'll ask. How do you personally stop "Speed"?
« Reply #3 on: October 13, 2009, 11:05:19 PM »
0
slap em' you noob.
If you do not stand for anything, you will fall to everything.

Offline thestrongangel

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 139
Re: OK, I'll ask. How do you personally stop "Speed"?
« Reply #4 on: October 14, 2009, 02:36:19 AM »
0
Consider what the speed deck is.  Consider how it chooses to play the game.  Consider what it must do to win.

Once you know how a deck plays, you know how best to counter it.

The best way that I have found to counter a speed deck is simply this:  Block Rescue attempts.

No matter how you slice the game, a player must make at minimum 3 successful rescues in order to win a game.  There are only 2 Doms that allow for automatic rescues, those being SoG/NJ.

The plan for a speed deck is to simply draw/search every card in their deck out and get to their power cards as fast as possible.  They don't care about having LS in play, as they are primarily trying to beat you faster that you can beat them.

What you really need to do is not play their game.  By changing simple strategy around, you can place the Speed deck on its heels.  And there are many ways to do this.

Egyptian deck discard is one way to do this.  With High places in the format, you need to consider things that you can do on your turn that were not possible before.  One card I really like in Evil Gold is Seeminly Insignifigant.  By playing it with High Places, and playing it on your turn, by not making a rescue that turn, you can place a card from their hand on their deck, and then discard the top 2 cards, getting the card from hand plus an additional.

Another way is to make it so that they cannot rescue at all, via capture and removing all their heroes.  Most speed decks do not have a way to recover their characters once they are in a LoB or removed from game, and without heroes, they cannot make those three rescues to win the game.  Grey, Evil Gold, and even black/brown work well in this regard.

Most of these decks that run CotH, a great fortress addition to a deck would be Trap of the Devil.  Whenever your opponent hits 14 offense in battle, your evil card abilities cannot be prevented, allowing you to do some major damage.

These are just a few different ways, and will probably start writing up an aritcle on it.
The most profound thing I have learned in gaming, if you are not losing, your opponent isn't winning

Offline Smokey

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3224
  • The brows.
    • -
    • Northeast Region
Re: OK, I'll ask. How do you personally stop "Speed"?
« Reply #5 on: October 14, 2009, 02:41:52 AM »
0
slap em' you noob.

+1, I prefer 12fg, KoT, and Mayhem / Confusion myself.

Offline Professoralstad

  • Tournament Host
  • Redemption Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 9395
    • -
    • North Central Region
Re: OK, I'll ask. How do you personally stop "Speed"?
« Reply #6 on: October 14, 2009, 07:18:18 PM »
0
Back in the day, my Heroless deck rarely if ever lost to a Speed deck. I played several, and most of the time it went like this:

Opponent draws out all of their power cards. Opponent uses all of their power cards in futile RA's (maybe 1 or 2 successful ones) vs. a huge defense. Opponent has no power cards left, and no way to get past a bunch of huge EC's.

I convert an EC to a purple hero. I discard all of their few EC's with AoC. I heal my hero as necessary. I walk through for all necessary rescues.

It was amazing how well it worked.

That said, having a sizable defense is the best way to counter speed in my opinion. Otherwise, stalling tactics like self-capture/Raider's Camp, use of the 2-liner, and ways to hide available LS's can be useful, though most speed decks have ways to get around those. Also, having a continual onslaught of attacks yourself to overwhelm the usually small defense of the speed player can often work. It just depends on who has LS's available.

I agree though. Cards like Mayhem and Darius' Decree can certainly help against speed, and can also be very useful in other situations.
Γεια σου, το όνομά μου είναι η Ιορδανία.

Offline The Guardian

  • Official Playtester Redemption Elder
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 5827
    • -
    • North Central Region
Re: OK, I'll ask. How do you personally stop "Speed"?
« Reply #7 on: October 14, 2009, 07:36:27 PM »
0
Using the Speed Bump LS is a fairly effective method to slow down Speed decks. Most speed decks do not use I am Salvation (maybe a few of the Z-Temple only decks do) so if they want to draw fast, they will need to use their own SoG/NJ or Burial on your Lost Soul, a clear advantage for you.

Another thing is to use lots of Evil Characters. I use 9 ECs in a 56 card deck because many times, a speed deck will attack without enhancements to back the Hero up in hopes you don't have an EC. Take Hur for example--most speed decks play with at most 2 green enhancements (Search and Provisions) that Hur can use.

Offline Red Dragon Thorn

  • Redemption Elder, Playtester
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 4099
  • I'm Immune.
    • -
    • North Central Region
Re: OK, I'll ask. How do you personally stop "Speed"?
« Reply #8 on: October 14, 2009, 07:41:15 PM »
0
I stop speed by building a faster speed deck.
I draw cards. And laugh at you.

Offline Lamborghini_diablo

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8635
  • Redemption Wiki - The REG Reborn!
    • -
    • East Central Region
Re: OK, I'll ask. How do you personally stop "Speed"?
« Reply #9 on: October 14, 2009, 07:53:49 PM »
0
Too much text in the first three posts!  :o

Also, I just use a fast drawing and large defense to counter speed. I play the total opposite.
The REG Lives on in Wiki format! http://redemption.wikia.com/wiki/Redemption_Wiki

|>

Offline Dueln Dude

  • New Member
  • *
  • Posts: 64
Re: OK, I'll ask. How do you personally stop "Speed"?
« Reply #10 on: October 14, 2009, 08:04:08 PM »
0
Speed can be countered a number of different ways. One thing you might want to try is sometimes not to block your opponent( I know this sounds crazy) when you don't get the first initiative.(this is because many times when you block you're not going to be able to stop a good speed deck on offense and you many times open up the door for drawing and letting them set up their deck if you give them initiative) One defense that combats speed is orange(it many times gets initiative and ends the battle without any trouble+ Gates of Hell makes it a very good against speed) I'll post later more

Offline Westy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10052
  • Adventure Is Out There!
    • -
    • North Central Region
Re: OK, I'll ask. How do you personally stop "Speed"?
« Reply #11 on: October 14, 2009, 08:13:19 PM »
0
Sauce, you only beat me every time because we're playing speed deck against speed deck. with TexP out, I'm gonna be trying something different. you better watch out ;)

Sites are awesome against speed. Brown sites work super well. if you use Babylonian with a Banquet Hall, you should have no problem of Lost Soul overload. and play a small offense... but Hur will be the only green most speed decks will use. and none of them will use red. a Taking Naboth's Vineyard can take out any site access. and a Haman's Plot can kill CotH, Hur, and one other who you're having problems with.

otherwise, I'd say just play a defense. speed has glitches, but if they draw everything right, you're dead. large defenses work awesome, as you draw them right away.

Offline metalpsalm

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1379
  • The LORD sat as King at the flood Psalm 29:10
    • -
    • East Central Region
    • League of Extraordinary Redemption CCG Players
Re: OK, I'll ask. How do you personally stop "Speed"?
« Reply #12 on: October 14, 2009, 10:11:10 PM »
0
I stop speed by building a faster speed deck.
I nominate this for post of the week. Que music!!!
I think if you hate a deck type, make your deck kill that type. How much fun is it to own someone who usually wins? Very much fun. Like savoring a snifter of cream soda
Official creator of the first version of Heroless, albeit the joke version  =] I wear it proudly!

Offline Rawrlolsauce!

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4919
  • hhhehehe
    • -
    • North Central Region
Re: OK, I'll ask. How do you personally stop "Speed"?
« Reply #13 on: October 14, 2009, 10:15:06 PM »
0
Sauce, you only beat me every time because we're playing speed deck against speed deck.
My type 2 isn't speed, and you haven't beaten me in type 2 yet  :-*.1

1I'm refering to 2-player. You beat me more often than not in multi-player.2
2Except in Booster Draft.3
3You still have better booster draft decks though. I just win because Jason is nice enough to give me 4 free souls two games in a row.
hhhehehe

Offline Arch Angel

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1234
    • -
    • Northeast Region
Re: OK, I'll ask. How do you personally stop "Speed"?
« Reply #14 on: October 14, 2009, 10:33:03 PM »
+1
Just keep forcing them to shuffle... and shuffle... and shuffle...

Offline Gabe

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 6153
  • Here I am! Send me.
    • -
    • North Central Region
Re: OK, I'll ask. How do you personally stop "Speed"?
« Reply #15 on: October 15, 2009, 01:23:58 AM »
0
A lot of people define speed differently and it takes on a lot of different forms.  You mentioned a few specif things that seem to annoy you about a certain style of speed deck so I'll address some cards specifically that will help against those annoyances.

Card Drawing via Mahari + Claudia + ET and Hur + Gifts/Set Aside Drawing
Mayhem - Let them draw.  Then even the playing field.  Play it when it will hurt them the most.
Burial Shroud - Delays 2 of the three ways to draw cards.
Darius' Decree - Stops 2 of the three ways to draw cards.
Rain Becomes Dust - Stops their drawing until they can get rid of it.  Buys you the time you need.
Lost Soul (speed bump) Matthew 19:23 - They can draw but they can't rescue.
Lost Soul (same testament) Acts 14:4 - Negates draw abilities against Mahari Claudia ET band.

Captain Bands
Grapes of Wrath - shuffle the whole band back into their deck to buy yourself time.
Ashera Pole - Play whatever you want against Cptn.  Also works vs Hur and Mahari.
Golden Calf - Captain isn't very cool if he's not FBTN.
Holy of Holies - Ditto.
Household Idols - Not only stops the Cptn band but Mahari + Claudia + ET too.
Confusion of Mind - See G.Calf and HoH.
The Trap of the Devil - Your evil cards still work vs Cptn band.  Not as easy to get rid of as an Artifact.
Lost Soul (can't be prevented) Jeremiah 11:8 - Your first enhancement works vs Cptn.
Lost Soul (punisher) Jeremiah 17:9 - Often "Speed" has more than 3 brigades.
Lost Soul (same reference)  Proverbs 16:28 - Not available a Cptn band or Mahari Claudia ET band.

Generally helpful strategies vs "Speed" style decks:

Play Sites to stall them.  They usually have very little, if any, Red.  There are several ways to steal opposing access Sites that cannot be negated or can be played outside of battle.

Lost Soul (thorns) II Samuel 23:6 - Speed has a small defense an often relies on the "Shuffler" LS for a "block".  Keep them from shuffling and it works well with Sites since yours won't shuffle anyway.

Fit Heroes into your deck that can natually borrow their banding chains.  There's at least one in over half of the good brigades.

Use The Garden Tomb on offense.  Speed decks have a hard time blocking a TGT Hero when TGT is active because of their small, often multi-color defense.

Make sure you include some battle winning Enhancements "cannot be negated" in every defense.  Every brigade has Enhancement and/or Characters that will help with this.

On offense, include a few ways to get past "stand alone" Evil Characters.  Often the few defenders speed has will rely on immunity or FBTN or protecting Lost Souls for a block.  Have ways to get past these things and be aggressive.

Obvioulsy you won't include all of these in the same deck but there should be plenty of choices to get you headed in the right direction.
We are far worse than we ever dared to believe, and far more loved than we ever hoped to imagine.

Offline Bap7

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 261
  • On Fire For God 24/7/365!!!
    • -
    • Southeast Region
Re: OK, I'll ask. How do you personally stop "Speed"?
« Reply #16 on: October 15, 2009, 01:50:19 AM »
0
Whats FBTN??? I see it a LOT and can't figure it out :P :-[
Hope you catch the fire for him!
Visit www.route7estero.com for some awesomeness!!!

Offline Gabe

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 6153
  • Here I am! Send me.
    • -
    • North Central Region
Re: OK, I'll ask. How do you personally stop "Speed"?
« Reply #17 on: October 15, 2009, 01:51:37 AM »
0
Fight By The Numbers  ;)

Cards like Moses and King of Tyrus.
We are far worse than we ever dared to believe, and far more loved than we ever hoped to imagine.

Offline Bap7

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 261
  • On Fire For God 24/7/365!!!
    • -
    • Southeast Region
Re: OK, I'll ask. How do you personally stop "Speed"?
« Reply #18 on: October 15, 2009, 01:55:54 AM »
0
WOW!! LOL! Thanks! :-[ :-[ ;D
Hope you catch the fire for him!
Visit www.route7estero.com for some awesomeness!!!

Offline Westy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10052
  • Adventure Is Out There!
    • -
    • North Central Region
Re: OK, I'll ask. How do you personally stop "Speed"?
« Reply #19 on: October 15, 2009, 03:43:10 AM »
0
Sauce, you only beat me every time because we're playing speed deck against speed deck.
My type 2 isn't speed, and you haven't beaten me in type 2 yet  :-*.1

1I'm refering to 2-player. You beat me more often than not in multi-player.2
2Except in Booster Draft.3
3You still have better booster draft decks though. I just win because Jason is nice enough to give me 4 free souls two games in a row.
we don't play that often in Type-2. plus, my type-2 decks suck. but that'll change!

Offline Gabe

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 6153
  • Here I am! Send me.
    • -
    • North Central Region
Re: OK, I'll ask. How do you personally stop "Speed"?
« Reply #20 on: October 15, 2009, 04:55:17 AM »
0
we don't play plus, my type-2 decks suck. but that'll change!

I hope so.  I'd be disappointed if I drove clear to Austin to play against a "sucky" deck. ;)
We are far worse than we ever dared to believe, and far more loved than we ever hoped to imagine.

Offline EmJayBee83

  • Tournament Host
  • *****
  • Posts: 4234
  • Ha! It's funny because the squirrel gets dead.
    • mjb Games
Re: OK, I'll ask. How do you personally stop "Speed"?
« Reply #21 on: October 15, 2009, 05:15:07 AM »
0
we don't play plus, my type-2 decks suck. but that'll change!

I hope so.  I'd be disappointed if I drove clear to Austin to play against a "sucky" deck. ;)
Yeah, you usually have to drive all the way to the Twin Cities to play a "sucky" deck.*


*Meaning mine.

Offline The Guardian

  • Official Playtester Redemption Elder
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 5827
    • -
    • North Central Region
Re: OK, I'll ask. How do you personally stop "Speed"?
« Reply #22 on: October 15, 2009, 05:28:29 AM »
0
Speaking of T2 decks, I have a new one I would like to test if anyone is interested  ;D

Offline lightningninja

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5420
  • I'm Watchful Servant, and I'm broken.
Re: OK, I'll ask. How do you personally stop "Speed"?
« Reply #23 on: October 15, 2009, 05:31:29 AM »
0
Unknown Nation, site guard, madness, other cards like this. If you make them waste 2-3 good enhancements that kill you... they're out. So if you can be removed, and then find a way to still block, you're set.
As a national champion, I support ReyZen deck pouches.

Offline Prof Underwood

  • Redemption Elder
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 7746
    • East Central Region
Re: OK, I'll ask. How do you personally stop "Speed"?
« Reply #24 on: October 15, 2009, 06:05:33 AM »
0
...I don't like Garden Tomb...all tournament decks looking the same to me..."What can you do against speed?", and I really didn't have a good answer for him...
Wow, you take on TGT, proliferation of deck staples, and speed all in the short time you've been here.  You are welcome to sit at my table anytime :)

I agree with the good advice of others in this thread.  I really don't see too much problem from speed decks in T1-2p anymore as long as you have a strong defense.  However, since not enough people play with a strong defense in T1-mp, speed is nigh unstoppable there.

Offline Westy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10052
  • Adventure Is Out There!
    • -
    • North Central Region
Re: OK, I'll ask. How do you personally stop "Speed"?
« Reply #25 on: October 15, 2009, 03:07:38 PM »
0
we don't play plus, my type-2 decks suck. but that'll change!

I hope so.  I'd be disappointed if I drove clear to Austin to play against a "sucky" deck. ;)
you won't have the chance. Sauce beats me too fast  :)

Offline xCaLeBx

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1491
  • There's no crying in hardcore!
Re: OK, I'll ask. How do you personally stop "Speed"?
« Reply #26 on: October 15, 2009, 03:12:10 PM »
0
I used to beat rawrlolsauce on a regular basis remember  :-* and guess what guys and gals I have renounced my speedy ways and my tournament deck is almost more defense than offense  :o and it has beaten many a speed deck (21-1 yays)
"Someone died in the bathroom, didn't they." -Dwight
l>

Offline Westy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10052
  • Adventure Is Out There!
    • -
    • North Central Region
Re: OK, I'll ask. How do you personally stop "Speed"?
« Reply #27 on: October 15, 2009, 08:31:02 PM »
0
I used to beat rawrlolsauce on a regular basis remember  :-* and guess what guys and gals I have renounced my speedy ways and my tournament deck is almost more defense than offense  :o and it has beaten many a speed deck (21-1 yays)
haha, so did I. then he got good  :D
yeah, speed decks aren't hard to beat if you have decent defense. but most people don't like playing large defenses.

Offline Rawrlolsauce!

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4919
  • hhhehehe
    • -
    • North Central Region
Re: OK, I'll ask. How do you personally stop "Speed"?
« Reply #28 on: October 15, 2009, 08:40:19 PM »
0
you won't have the chance. Sauce beats me too fast  :)
But then Isabel can play Gabe first round and beat him so you can play Gabe :)!

(Oh, wait. Are we still talking about type 2?)
hhhehehe

Offline Westy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10052
  • Adventure Is Out There!
    • -
    • North Central Region
Re: OK, I'll ask. How do you personally stop "Speed"?
« Reply #29 on: October 16, 2009, 03:22:40 AM »
0
you won't have the chance. Sauce beats me too fast  :)
But then Isabel can play Gabe first round and beat him so you can play Gabe :)!

(Oh, wait. Are we still talking about type 2?)
yes. hahaha, the board members are probably super confused.

Offline slugfencer

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 728
  • if you don't pay the exorcist you get repossessed
    • -
    • Southeast Region
Re: OK, I'll ask. How do you personally stop "Speed"?
« Reply #30 on: October 16, 2009, 04:36:12 AM »
0
Gabriel (wa) is a great card against speed because you can knock out a few of their super can't be negated battlewinners, which will lengthen the game for you giving you the advantage. Speed is fast and potent, but small size (50 cards) means it usually won't be able to overcome losing it's battlewinning enhancements. Speed wants a short game, and if you can slow it down with many of the above mentioned counters, you will have the upper hand. Gabriel is also versatile against other deck types.
As was mentioned above, if you want to defeat speed, playtest it alot and figure it out so then you will better understand its weaknesses and then expolit them.
As far as the 16 card limit, I have not seen it really negatively impact the modern speed/aggro decks, but it does mess with the older original versions that used to draw the entire deck in a turn or 2. The limit also helps impact the massive card drawing that type 2 saw in clift/gabe's sin in the camp deck, where the card drawing would quickly setup the lockdown and game over.
High priest's plot can be alot of fun, too.  :)
« Last Edit: October 16, 2009, 04:39:24 AM by slugfencer »
If I were ever to challenge you to a duel your best bet would be battle axes in a very dark basement

Offline Lamborghini_diablo

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8635
  • Redemption Wiki - The REG Reborn!
    • -
    • East Central Region
Re: OK, I'll ask. How do you personally stop "Speed"?
« Reply #31 on: October 16, 2009, 05:18:40 AM »
0
As was mentioned above, if you want to defeat speed, playtest it alot and figure it out so then you will better understand its weaknesses and then expolit them.

I should try that with a lot of deck types... IDK why I never thought of that, but it's a great idea. Play with a deck type to learn it's weakness.  ;D
The REG Lives on in Wiki format! http://redemption.wikia.com/wiki/Redemption_Wiki

|>

Offline southpawami

  • New Member
  • *
  • Posts: 85
Re: OK, I'll ask. How do you personally stop "Speed"?
« Reply #32 on: October 16, 2009, 05:45:33 AM »
0
I didn't see the artifact mentioned, but there's an artifact called Gift of the Magi... when my friend plays speedy, if it's out, I'm drawing as much as he is as fast as he is.  It's kinda pointless... the game isn't so dramatic when we're both doing the same thing.

Offline xCaLeBx

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1491
  • There's no crying in hardcore!
Re: OK, I'll ask. How do you personally stop "Speed"?
« Reply #33 on: October 16, 2009, 02:05:54 PM »
0
LOL Hur + gifts only works for him but gifts alone still works for him if you have set asides or hur. And drawing as fast and as much as you can would be the point like my favorite band has ET and Jacob in it so you can play book of hozai then play reach and I think the band has mahari in it so then you can play words....to bad the stupid hand limit came in  :'(
"Someone died in the bathroom, didn't they." -Dwight
l>

Offline batman6768

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 436
  • "we've survived the battle that we've fought"
Re: OK, I'll ask. How do you personally stop "Speed"?
« Reply #34 on: October 16, 2009, 03:17:16 PM »
0
the hand size was made to stop speed camp in tyoe 2. 
If you do not stand for anything, you will fall to everything.

Offline Westy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10052
  • Adventure Is Out There!
    • -
    • North Central Region
Re: OK, I'll ask. How do you personally stop "Speed"?
« Reply #35 on: October 16, 2009, 03:31:46 PM »
0
idk if any one as told you this idea yet but, you could try a Abom deck.
that doesn't help against speed. outside of the fact that the defense is usually large in Abom decks.

Offline Lamborghini_diablo

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8635
  • Redemption Wiki - The REG Reborn!
    • -
    • East Central Region
Re: OK, I'll ask. How do you personally stop "Speed"?
« Reply #36 on: October 16, 2009, 04:57:10 PM »
0
Also, when playing brown, I'll sometimes throw Broken Cisterns into the defense. It serves two purposes for me.  :)
The REG Lives on in Wiki format! http://redemption.wikia.com/wiki/Redemption_Wiki

|>